Author Topic: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types  (Read 2118 times)

Offline Qatu

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Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« on: September 02, 2014, 12:15:36 PM »
 I would love to play with bouncer+special forces captain enabled in most of my games, I consider they make the game very significantly more exciting. Sadly when I chose them I can't choose 2 quirky AI types to play with.

 So, proposition: make bouncer and special forces captain lobby options in either AI Options or AI Plots, now I could have bouncer + captain + preemptive + everything + mime!!!

edit: would be nice to also have a lobby option to disable design backups since they get really cumbersome with everything AI.

edit2: actually mime could be an option instead of an AI type as well.... imagine the possibilities :O
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 12:21:04 PM by Qatu »

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 12:21:31 PM »
Bouncer could be interesting as an AI option, I'd second that.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 12:29:20 PM »
Wouldn't capping Design Backups be easier? Sure you could get back luck and not have TDLs available to remove, but hey, back in my day you couldn't just remove AI ships :) .

Offline Qatu

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 12:48:49 PM »
  Not to detract from the main point of the thread but it's just awkward to have so many design backups around against everything AI and well, I almost never make use them anyway no matter what the AI gets, I prefer to just play without them, so it's mostly about reducing unnecessary clutter from already very busy screens. I'd be happy if this small request was simply added as a cheat.

edit:  also what's worse about everything AI design backups is capturing all the OP ships for self use. The AI just can't deal at all with some combinations like blades+sentinels+spirefrigates+protectors, but I'm a big boy and can resist the temptation.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 12:53:03 PM by Qatu »

Offline MaxAstro

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 01:14:18 PM »
I always set the secondary type of both AIs to Bouncer, as I just find it more fun.  So I would definitely approve if bouncer were an AI plot instead of a type.

Offline zharmad

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 05:20:21 PM »
Approved from here. Has this been mantised?

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 12:51:18 PM »
How about kite flying and tag teamer (that is the one that makes guards freed more readily, right) be options/AI plots as well. These are just fleet management micro changes? IMO, they aren't really deserving of a full AI type themselves.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 03:58:06 PM »
How about kite flying and tag teamer (that is the one that makes guards freed more readily, right) be options/AI plots as well. These are just fleet management micro changes? IMO, they aren't really deserving of a full AI type themselves.

Kiting is a form of fleet micro, so yeah.  I thought Tag Teamer changed the way the AI defends systems.  It's been a while since I ran against a TT so I can't be sure.

I'd be for making Bouncer a plot though.  It's been my default secondary for awhile now (annoying wormhole GP ::))
I could see it for any AI type that doesn't really add or change much in the AI <-> Player interaction.
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Offline Qatu

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 09:55:24 PM »
Playing AI War again after a pause I'm finding that I'm still playing combinations including Bouncer/SpecialForcesCaptain/Vengeful/Exotic on both AI every game. I guess Chivalric could also be a nice option for those who like it. Maybe we could lobby to rework some of these things into Plots/AIoptions for the next expansion?

Offline Mal

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2015, 11:58:40 PM »
Being able to modify and give the AI more options is always welcome.

In fact, being able to adjust and add all the personalities to the AI to a certain extent would be a fun ultimate goal add-on to this suggestion. Something like:

AI Plots
=========
Bouncer 4/10
Chivalric 6/10
Cowardly 4/10
...
Vicious Exotic 10/10

Would be really fun to control all the features of the AI and how much they tend to do certain personalities or take advantage of their strengths/weaknesses.

And of course an Omni-AI with all options on would just be crazy fun to see.


Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 04:59:01 PM »
I'd definitely enjoy converting a number of the AI types to adjustable Plots.  There are a lot of them on the list that I've looked at and thought I might like to try/have tried, and I then I notice that they do whatever their special is on every single planet of theirs, which ends up not being a whole lot of fun and just kind of repetitive.

Take Peacemaker for example -- OMD/WI on every single planet of theirs?  Not a chance I will *ever* play with this type as is.  If I could adjust it so that it was 30% or whatever percent I wanted, then sure, could be interesting, especially depending on what else it was combined with.  I'm sure everyone can think of at least one AI type that they'd be interested in trying if they could tune it to taste instead of it being "always does this every time, every planet".

I think any of the types that just affect what structures are seeded would be excellent candidates for this.  Some of the others would probably be trickier to convert, but might be worthwhile.  Looking at Mal's example, I'm thinking of what if that Vicious Exotic were a 5/10, and every wave you couldn't be sure if it was going to be a regular wave, or an exo?  That would be tense...
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Offline Mal

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2015, 05:50:18 PM »
Good call Red.Queen,

Being able to dial up or down a feature rather than a 100% is definitely something I want.

The one I would love to play with is "Scorched Earth" but it is just a bit too much for me to have it nuke all of its worlds.


Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 08:48:12 PM »
Maybe sorting out what is "personality" and what is "additional feature" would be helpful. I'm going to browse the list and see what can be done on the paper.

Bouncer: replace wormhole guard posts by regular ones? Can be a plot. Easily.
Chivalric: don't got for irreplaceable targets. Sound like a personality, but as long as it only affect "eligible target" checking, maybe it could be a plot (a kind plot... strange. Maybe a modifier like schizophrenic or no-wave)
Cowardly: don't engage unless superior. Same as Chivalric, personality but only influence a precise point in AI internal calculations. So rather an AI modifier than a plot.
Entrenched Homeworlder: captive human settlements, it's just adding buildings, so it could be a plot (looks like a minor faction, something like rebelling colonies in less dramatical proportions, risk/reward capturables)
Fortress Baron: fortresses more common. Buildings: can be a plot.
Grav driller: buildings; can be a plot (and risk/reward too)
Mine enthusiast: buildings (sort of); can be a plot.
Neinzul Viral Enthusiast: buildings; can be a plot. (I'm going to copy-past it...)
Shield Ninny: buildings; can be a plot.
Sledge hammer: Oh, something new. Waves are half as frequent but twice as strong. Tweak waves delay and strength. Some "half waves" or "cross planet waves" AI modifiers already exist and it looks like that.
Support Corps: Extra unlocks (there could be some "packs" of unlocks that would be useful for youngsters, zenith descendant, spirelings and the like) and no wave.
The Tank: extra unlocks and tweak waves strength/reinforcement.
Train Master: sounds like advanced hybrids for trains. A plot with an advanced version already exist. And the normal train plot intensity tweak which kind of nasty trains could be used; it would be interesting to be able to tweak quantity apart.
Turtle: no wave but extra reinforcement? Sounds like preemption. And the "no wave" already exist as AI modifier.
Vanilla... seriously?

Artillerist: extra unlocks.
Assassin: this is interesting; it tweak the player target logic. Each AI could have a three-state-switch: target best player, target weakest player, normal targeting.
Backdoor hacker: sort of building, isn't it?
Bully: see assassin.
Camouflager: all ships have the zenith chameleon's ability. on/off switch like a plot.
Counter spy: buildings; can be a plot.
Exotic: this one is special. The wave definition (alongside with "no wave warning", "cross planet waves" and the like) would be complex.
Experimentalist: unlock pack.
Feeding parasite: unlock pack.
Kite Flier: sort of "everybody"s ability, like camouflager.
Mad bomber: tweak the wave/reinforcement ratio and give... extra unlock?
Neinzul cluster bomber: buildings; can be a plot.
Neinzul youngster: unlock pack. And maybe influence wave composition (see latter)
One-way doormaster: buildings; can be a plot.
Peacemaker: buildings; can be a plot.
Reservist: just a plot?
Speed racer: "everyone"s ability. (I'm going to need more than one clipboard)
Spireling: unlock pack.
Stealth master: unlock pack.
Tag Teamer: speedy guards? Wat? Well, is this one an ability-like?
Teleporter turtle: unlock pack.
Thief: unlock pack.
Vicious raider: unlock pack and wave/reinforcement balance tweaking.
Zenith  descendant: unlock pack.

Alarmist: buildings; can be a plot.
Attritioner: buildings; can be a plot.
Everything: unlock pack (kinda special pack)
Extreme raider: unlock pack
Fortress king: modular fortress command station? Wat? Well, does something else modify command stations? yep, the "subcom" personality, but it's a future one ;D
Golemite: sounds like a plot. Anyway, it's something added (a bit like buildings)
Mime: modify wave composition. Incompatible with AI that change wave composition too.
Neinzul nester: buildings; can be a plot.
Overreactive: tweak salvage/reprisal calculations.
Quadratic: tweak delay/strength of waves.
Radar jammer: buildings; can be a plot.
Retaliatory: counter guard posts... don't know how to handle this exactly.
Scorched earth: sounds like a plot, like "atomic command station" (thematic), or the Avenger plot.
Shadow master: unlock pack and "buildings; can be a plot."
Special forces captain: only has special forces guard posts, which tweak guard post pick (like bouncer or retaliatory)
Spire Hammer: special unlock pack.
Starfleet commander: change the composition of waves.
Starfleet fanatic: change the composition of... well, everything that move.
Vanguard: same thing.
Vengeful: trigger exowave when... whatever happens. Sounds like a plot.
Vorpal: extra unlocks? wave delay/strength? don't understand.
Warp jumper: ability for everyone, and can the absence of warp gates count as some sort of building [not] seeded?

Brutal: core guard posts, so influence guard post pick (like bouncer, retaliatory and special forces captain)
Crafty spire: sounds like golemite.
Heroic: extra unlocks or wave composition modifier?
Raid engine: buildings; can be a plot.

Technologist homeworlder: already a dual type; like homeworlder (buildings; can be a plot.) but Mk+2.
Technologist Parasite: extra unlock and Mk+2.
Technologist raider: raider and Mk+2
Technologist sledge: sledge and Mk+2
Technologist turtle: turtle and Mk+2 (so obviously Mk+2 will be a separate "technologist" plot)
The Core: all ships are MkV; so change the composition of ships (waves/reinforcements/exo?) like vanguard and starfleet fanatic, right?
vicious exotic: the plot of exotic but with a big bonus to "wave" size.

Ok, I'll come back tomorrow to clean up this mess. This is an awesome idea to sort out all the AI personalities and make little compatible (or incompatible for some) plots/modifiers/MF/whatever.

Good night.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 02:05:07 PM »
Ok, let's go back to it. I'm sure a dangerous amount of fun can be achieve with a better organization of AI Types.

Wave

One big feature common to almost all AI types is the balance wave/reinforcement. Each time an AI gets credits, it allows it to either wave or reinforcement. Then when credits allowed to wave hit a threshold, a wave is triggered: the higher the threshold, the bigger the waves but the more delayed they are. Then the AI picks ships with its wave composition logic (and available designs). And when an AI reinforces, it also picks ships the same way (well, maybe the same way, but it picks ships too).

So, each AI would have personal modifiers (maybe put below "no wave warning", "cross planet waves", etc, but each AI has its own options)
- aggression: from 0 to 10. On 0, never wave (replace the "no wave" AI modifier) and always reinforce. On 10, never reinforce and all credits go to waves.
- preparation: from 0 to 10. On 0, the wave threshold is very low and the AI trigger waves almost as soon as it has credits allowed to waves. On 10, the wave threshold is gigantic, waves are rare but gigantic.

Note: these are only ratio, and some AI have bonuses... Looks like there would need another pair of buttons to add plain flat bonuses in waves and reinforcement.

Some AI types rely only on that.
- sledge hammer: rare and big waves. Has a big value in "preparation".
- turtle: has 0 in aggression so all its credits go in reinforcement.
- mad bomber: has a big furry number in aggression.
- quadratic: sounds like a big "preparation" score, but I dunno if it's all; it's not just a bigger sledge hammer, right? So what am I missing?
- vorpal: I didn't understand this one, but I guess it has something to do with preparation and aggression.

Map Generation

The is many AI types that only modify the galaxy generation before the game is launched. The effects last all the game, of course. So let's gather all the AI types that do barely only that (and tweak aggression).
They can all be added concurrently, so each could be a plot-like or a special list of "what do you want to add in your galaxy?". Could be per AI or not... I dunno.

Added buildings
- entranched homeworlder (adds human settlement)
- gravity driller (adds gravity drills)
- oneway doormaster (adds blackhole machines)
- peacemaker (adds more ion canons, OMD and warhead interceptors)
- radar jammer (adds radar jammers)
- attritioner (adds attritioners)
- alarmist (adds alarm posts)
- raid engine (adds raid engines)
- shadow master (adds planetary cloakers)
- fortress baron (adds more fortresses)
- mine enthusiast (adds mines)
- neinzul viral enthusiast (adds neinzul clusters)
- neinzul cluster bomber (adds neinzul clusters)
- neinzul nester (adds neinzul nests)
- shield ninny (adds shields booster or inhibitor)
- backdoor hacker (does the exogalactic wormhole count as a building in the game's logic?)
- counter spy (adds ion canon like eyes oneshotting cloaked ships)

Modified guard posts
Bouncer aside, GP modifiers can be compatible with each other only if they don't affect all GP. Can be on/off plots like counter posts or intensity plots with 10 meaning "all GP are replaced by X".

- bouncer: wormhole GP -> regular GP: don't change the nature of regular GP but allows more GP slots (normally reserved to wormholes GP) so fully compatible with any other GP modifier
- retaliatory: replace (all/many/some) GP with Counter Wave GP
- special forces captain: replace (all/many/some) GP with SF GP
- brutal: replace (all/many/some) GP with brutal GP.

Special
These don't add buildings, but it sounds like they add something before the game start.

- fortress king
- golemite
- crafty spire

Unlock packs

So some AI types are barely only a tweak on wave/reinforcement and a pack of ships designs (these designs can even be hacked by players like the regular random unlocks granted to AIs when AIP raises). So each AI could have a sort of "technology panel" where it can be granted (on/off) packs of unlocks. Maybe it's useless to on/off each ship design. Why did I say "maybe"? It is useless! So just some packs. And of course packs are compatible with each other: there is no "unable to unlock ship X" modifier (only when swallower or drone launcher ships are disabled... Ah, maybe it's an idea...)
So ships available through both AIP raising and initial special unlocks are used for both reinforcement and waves composition (and exo? dunno).

- the tank (also tweak wave/reinforcement ratio)
- artillerist
- experimentalist
- feeding parasite
- neinzul youngster
- spireling
- stealth master
- teleporter turtle (also tweak wave/reinforcement ratio)
- thief
- vicious raider (also tweak wave/reinforcement ratio)
- zenith descendant
- everything (quite a special "pack")
- extreme raider
- shadow master (stealth master's pack + planetary cloakers?)
- spire hammer (they are not regular unlocks (they're not hackable nor regularly eligible)

- support corps: it's a bit special. It has a some special unlocks, it doesn't send waves (already possible with the "no wave" or "aggression 0") but most importantly it adds ships to it's mate's waves. And this is a unique feature.

Minor Plot-Like Twists

Special Ability for Ships

There is a collection of AI types that give one special ability (depends on AI type) to all its ships. As long as each ability is an addition they are all compatible with each other. And obviously they are on/off switches.

- camouflager: everyone has the Zenith chameleon's ability.
- speed racer: everyone has a "builtin" speed boost.
- tag teamer: speed boost but only for guards? Wat? Do you mean Guardians? I don't understand this one.

Decision Twist

Some AI change something in one of their decision mechanisms. So this is also a collection of on/off switches all compatibles with each other.

- chivalric: change the building targeting logic.
- cowardly: change the go/nogo decision logic when ships ask themselves if they go for attack or stay as threatfleet. Also influence the retreat behavior, I think.
- assassin and bully: these ones are incompatible (so what, a 3-state switch: normal/assassin/bully?) which interfere in the player targeting process (waves at least, also border aggressions maybe)
- kite flyer: twist the micro-behavior of the ships, but it's kind of a decision making.
- reservist: change the "may I use reserve to defend this planet?" decision. Also change the reserve size, so does the "may I" on/off switch also grant extended reserve, or is it a separate switch or intensity that control the oversize of the reserve?

Composition Twist

Some AI change the kind of ships (fleet/starship/guardian) they pick for waves and/or reinforcement. So what? One 0~10 plot-like for each? Or each type here are incompatible with each other? Dunno.

- starfleet commander
- starfleet fanatic
- vanguard
- heroic? (picks champion nemesis as wave and reinforcement, isn't it? Feels outdated because of the alt. champ. nemesis plot)

Special

Some AI types add very special features. For the most, they look like regular plots, and for some I don't even understand why it's not a plot at all.

Train Master
So there already is a pair of plots with a version that increase the quantity and the other increase the "quality" (unlock more features or behaviors): the hybrids. They have a sheer number modifier, and a "how evil can I be?" limit. However the distinction between the hybrid plot and the advanced hybrid plot should be more clear (number/quality).
So why doesn't the train plot follow the same way? A "train quality" plot which describe what kind of evil wagons can spawn (like nuclear ones spawn only at high intensity) and a "train quantity" plot to recreate the train master's influence: spam spam spam moar trains.

Vengeful
This is a plot-like that resemble many of the VotM plots. So it could be a on/off switch or a plot with an intensity that trigger an exo when X. I don't understand why it's not a plot already.

Scorched Earth
Yet another "why it's not a plot". There is also the "nuclear command station" AI modifier which should be a plot... why not? Just a on/off switch checked when something special occurs: is that a "personality"?!?

Technologist
All the technologist are already dual personalities: an existing one (homeworlder, parasite, raider, sledge, turtle) and a Mk+2 for every of its ships. And as a bonus, if this would be a plot-like with a special intensity (special because it's not 0-10) you could have a Mk+1 or Mk+3 (or Mk+4 or +5?!?) and maybe a -1, -2, etc. Then "the core" personality would be a sort of +5, meaning "which mark do you want your ships, dear? MkV!!!"

Reprisal
So there is two AI types that mess with reprisal: the mime and the overreactive.
The first choose composition of reprisal waves in its special way. It's compatible with, for example, starfleet commander that influence regular waves. It's also compatible with the overreactive.
This last one change the salvage/reprisal calculation, nothing more.
So one on/off switch each? Plot or AI modifier? I'm kidding, there is no difference!!!

Exotic
And then... I'll step out of AI types and come back to it just after. Promise.
Why do golems, botnet, spirecraft and fallen spire have one exo each? Ok, for the fallen spire, the calculation is special, and it's canon with the lore. Ok. But!!! Look, Arcen already made one step toward desynchronizing bonus and malus: the "alt champ nemesis" is separated from "alt champ progress", and it allows you to play with "alt champ progress" against hybrid plot, or neinzul preservation wardens (which are pain with no bonus). So, look, add a plot/MF/whatever with intensity 0-10 called "exogalactic attack", and change all the messy "easy/moderate/hard" for golems, botnet and spirecraft with just one (each) on/off switch with no intensity that trigger no exo. Then you can cherry-pick your bonuses and your balancing pains. So Golems VS hybrid is fine. Spirecraft VS preservation wardens is fine (maybe). Botnet VS alt. champ.nemesis is fine. And Human Resistance Fighters VS plain old exo is fine too! And when I mean "fine", I mean "you can set it up this way if you want to", not "tsokay, HRF vs exo is balanced, lol".

Then back to AI types. There is the Exotic and the Vicious Exotic. Then you can have a lone "exogalactic attack" and "no wave/aggression 0" to craft your exotic "personality" (and I put " because I still don't think these are personalities). You wana vicious exotic? Crank out the exo plot/MF with intensity 10 and take no golem/spirecraft/HRF/champion/whatever bonus to compensate.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Qatu

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Re: Making bouncer/special forces captain options instead of AI types
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2015, 07:04:41 PM »
Hello very nice and helpful internet person, thanks for all those nice efforts and posts I wanted to do but never would have, hopefully they get noticed and help make this game even better!!

Feel free to have a very nice evening!