Author Topic: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote  (Read 6139 times)

Offline superking

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 11:20:22 am »
I personally don't have a problem with the way Space Tanks are right now.  Sure, it may not be the most inspired unit, but with over 50 bonus ships in the game now, I'm sorry to say that not every ARS unlock is going to be unique.

there is no reason for them not to be, tweaking stats and abilities around could easily make for 500 uniquely functioning units.

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 11:25:36 am »
Munitions Boosters
Die like flies.  Increase hitpoints and armor, definitely.  Otherwise, I like them.  There was something else I was thinking, but I forgot it.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 11:28:06 am »
Munitions Boosters
Die like flies.  Increase hitpoints and armor, definitely.  Otherwise, I like them.  There was something else I was thinking, but I forgot it.
Just checking, but did you know that I haven't gotten around to rebalancing those yet? :)  They're on the list I'm working on today, though.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2010, 11:31:01 am »
I personally don't have a problem with the way Space Tanks are right now.  Sure, it may not be the most inspired unit, but with over 50 bonus ships in the game now, I'm sorry to say that not every ARS unlock is going to be unique.

there is no reason for them not to be, tweaking stats and abilities around could easily make for 500 uniquely functioning units.
Yes, it's fine for them to be more unique; I had made them into bomber+ (which is, admittedly, not very interesting) as an alternative to an implementation that was frequently complained about as broken.  They're now boring, but not broken.  As I said earlier, I'm happy to make them non-boring, but I'm looking at you and the others to determine, agree upon, and tell me what that should be :)
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Offline PineappleSam

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 11:38:54 am »
Space tanks seem to be electric bombers that are slightly closer to the base bombers. I'm fine with them the way they are, but if they NEED a change then we're currently missing a military vessel that can clear mines. Well, clear mines without taking heavy losses anyway ;)

Mine flail, showing it's an appropriate ability for a tank. Not certain how a mine flail would work on a space tank though...

A tachyon beam that only targets mines? No inspiration atm.

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 12:09:03 pm »
Just checking, but did you know that I haven't gotten around to rebalancing those yet? :)  They're on the list I'm working on today, though.

Whoops, sorry!  I thought we were just supposed to put input in here, didn't realize this was just for talking about ships that were recently rebalanced.

While I'm posting here, Z Electric bombers, even mk2 z electric bombers, and Sentinel Frigates, are ridiculously scary in the hands of the AI.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2010, 12:17:28 pm »
Just checking, but did you know that I haven't gotten around to rebalancing those yet? :)  They're on the list I'm working on today, though.

Whoops, sorry!  I thought we were just supposed to put input in here, didn't realize this was just for talking about ships that were recently rebalanced.
No problem, just wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding :)

Quote
While I'm posting here, Z Electric bombers, even mk2 z electric bombers, and Sentinel Frigates, are ridiculously scary in the hands of the AI.
Are you seeing waves of those with similar counts as normal-ship-cap ships (which is a bug we're currently trying to track down), or are they that scary even in their correct proportions?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2010, 10:34:48 pm »
By the way, if I counted right when doing the release notes, 21 more bonus types have been rebalanced for 4.050 :)

That just leaves 11 more before this first establish-the-foundations pass is done.  The remaining ones are either melee, aoe, kamikaze, or really, really weird (Spire Blade Spawner, I'm looking at you).  Some of those will just be play-it-by-ear on the balance, but the numbers should be at least sane afterwards.
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Offline Sunshine!

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2010, 03:27:27 am »
Not even talking about waves - I was playing with low ship cap, and they've got 4.2 million hitpoints each at mark 2.  The problem was that there'd be a couple of them getting released from incursions onto a planet, either from destroying the command station or a guard post or something, and five of those plus a small escort (to distract turrets and the like) will easily trash an entire planet.  Even if you know they're there, a full cap of mk1 and mk2 fighters takes forever to kill even 1 (I know technically they're not supposed to be good against electric bombers, missile frigates are the "counter" triangle ship, but the missile frigates aren't really fast enough to respond to a random incursion before the 5 electric bombers have gibbed your entire planet).

Basically, the electric bombers were causing problems equivalent to if it were say, 10 bombers to 1 electric bomber of the same mark.  I would NOT want to see 10 electric bombers show up on a planet I hadn't dropped heavy fortifications on.  I eventually just gave up on that game because the combination of electric bombers and sentinel frigates being two AI bonus ships was making my life absolutely miserable.

I guess I should have realized though that 1 tractor beam can lock down that entire force (maybe, they may still do enough damage to just instagib the turret), it's just with the way I was trying to set up my defense I hadn't thought of that since tractor beam turrets tend to be expensive and energy intensive for what they actually do and how fast they actually die.

On the player side though (I tried out the new electric bombers after a couple game where the AI just randomly ended up with electric bombers over and over), I found that the electric bombers were very nicely balanced.  They crank out a pile of damage, and are reasonably durable (keep them away from artillery guardians, fortresses, and ion cannons unless they have a nice escort), but they are well worth it on offense if you need a super-heavy bomber.  They also combo well with transports since you have a total cap of 24 of them, which means you can dump them in a hurry to smack a command station and then turn around and run.

Overall, I like how they're balanced, but the AI just gets sheer numbers of them and that makes them extremely hard to deal with.  Maybe increase the number of reinforcement points needed for the AI to deploy an electric bomber, to cut down on bomber spam?  They still show up in reduced numbers, but those reduced numbers are still 10x more than they should be.  If anything, they should be showing up something like twice as frequently as starships, since at normal cap they tend to have about half the hitpoints and damage of a similar mark bomber starship, and they about match fleet starships for hitpoints and do more damage than fleet starships (at least for light starship and flagship, I don't think that holds for Zenith or Spire starships).

Offline superking

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2010, 05:34:06 am »
Spacetank Proposal:

***STATS***
HP: 10,000 + 10,000*MK (not multiplied by 7, this is the exact amount  of HP for high ship. for normal ship it would be doubled?)
Armour: 3000 + 1000*MK
Type: Polycrystal
Speed: 12
Damage:
Range: 2000
# Bonus vs UltraHeavy => 3
# Bonus vs Polycrystal => 3
# Bonus vs Structural f=> 3
# Bonus vs Heavy => 3
# Bonus vs Artillery => 3

***ABILITIES***
Radar Dampening: 8000

***CONCEPT***
Similar function to 3.0 Spacetank; cost effective against ships with weak, high RoF attacks. Defeats bombers and frigates for cost; is beaten by fighters for cost. Radar Dampening suite reduces oncoming fire from heavy long range weaponry.

Powerful on the defence VS waves. Similar function to bomber on the attack, with an increased immunity to weak attacks and a vunerablity to powerful ones.

Theory:
the grenade launcher at 8k HP 4k armour was nevertheless one of the most unkillable ships in the game while a minimal 5% damage was done through armour; playing defence mode, I found these ships were always the only thing that survived larger battles and acheived very acceptable kill:death ratios . now that that the minimal damage through armour is 20%, against non penetrating attacks the spacetank has equivalent of 100K HP at MK I. even against stronger attacks, without armour peircing -4000 damage is likely to take the edge off.

This does create a ship that very strong against some enemies and vunerable to others: however, with radar dampening many of those units cannot fire from maximum range, and are in anycase usually subject to a Low Rate of Fire. Fleetships which ignore armour are a natural counter but against a varied mix of enemy units t should prove cost effective and awesome.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 05:41:46 am by superking »

Offline orzelek

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2010, 06:08:02 am »
superking: please take a look at mantis thread about viability of this kind of unit - it will die horribly on most AI planets.

As for balance: getting useful unlocks is quite nice.

Offline superking

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2010, 06:11:46 am »
another idea:

Acid Sprayer Proposal

***STATS***
HP: 70,000*MK (not multiplied by 7, this is the exact amount  of HP for high ship. for normal ship it would be doubled?)
Armour: 0
Type: Light (countered by frigates/MRLS, which makes sense considering low speed, low range)
Speed: 18
Attack: 4,000 + 4000*MK
Range: 1000

***ABILITIES***

Attack does damage equal to Base Attack/(0.2*Square root of Target's Armour), where Target's Armour has a minimal value of 25.

eg. If an MK I Acid Sprayer fired upon an MK I Stealth Battleship (0 Armour), it would inflict 8000/0.2*?25:= 8000 Damage
     If an MK I Acid Sprayer fired upon an MK I Fighter (150 Armour), it would inflict 8000/0.2*?150:= 3333 Damage (-150 for armour)
     If an MK I Acid Sprayer fired upon an MK I Bomber (600 Armour), it would inflict 8000/0.2*?600 = 1666 Damage (-600 for armour)

***CONCEPT***

The original idea of the acid sprayer was a ship that melted the exotic components of Alien ships. Since Spire ships in particular have no armour, and many of the Zenith remnant have low armour, it makes sense that the acid sprayer would be best suited to dominating unarmoured ships. meanwhile, even light armour plate protects from the worst of acid corrosion, reducing damage significantly.

The basic idea now is a slow, fairly tough/unarmoured and very short ranged ship, with an attack that is devestating against unarmoured targets but ineffective against armoured ones. Its low speed and range also makes it ineffective against fast and autoskirmishing types. what it will do well is melt spireships, unarmoured swarm types and anything else lacking in the ol' armour plate. the numbers used for any stat, eg attack, are just a rough figure to give an idea to its function

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=2024

edit: the square root sign is showing up as a ?, use your imagination
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 06:44:29 am by superking »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2010, 06:14:24 am »
I played a campaign with Space Tanks today.  Personally I really like them.  Their high armor/moderate HP makes them better on defense than assault (they just seemed like they were getting ripped apart by Teleport Battle Stations).  They are also extremely expensive metal wise, but are well worth it when used correctly.  I still want to use them more but I'm not entirely sure why a change would be necessary.
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Offline superking

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2010, 06:20:43 am »
I played a campaign with Space Tanks today.  Personally I really like them.  Their high armor/moderate HP makes them better on defense than assault (they just seemed like they were getting ripped apart by Teleport Battle Stations).  They are also extremely expensive metal wise, but are well worth it when used correctly.  I still want to use them more but I'm not entirely sure why a change would be necessary.

because the concept is drab and really just 'slower but better bomber'.. the constrast between ship abilities and function is currently much lower than 3.0, where the spacetank was genuinely interesting (if polarized between absolute strength and being instagibbed. that wouldnt happen with the new armour system)

superking: please take a look at mantis thread about viability of this kind of unit - it will die horribly on most AI planets.

I read it, replied to it, addressed it in the above proposal and disagree... many of the counterarguments were from suzera and suggested a misunderstanding of the armour system's function- reducing effectivenss % of weak and rapidfire attacks. stronger attacks are intended to be a counter, although most gaurdians and gaurdposts do not do so much damage that 4000 armour takes the damage well under insta-gib levels when the unit in question has 20k HP; those that do have the capability have a low rate of fire, low population per planet and/or low HP; they are also capable of instagibbing many other ship types, while radar dampening reduces the ability of such units to fire on spacetanks from the other side of the map. certain units will counter it heavy, thats the nature of somthing hard but brittle... I dont see any of this as a problem with the concept.

anyway, it was just a suggestion :)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 06:41:33 am by superking »

Offline Suzera

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive v2.0 - Come Vote
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2010, 02:22:27 pm »
Radar dampening was not in your initial mantis proposal. Still a bad idea though.

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but this is the list of guardians where the % reduction from even 12k armor will be relatively small/none/useless:

Laser guardians (bonus vs polycrystal and highish damage per shot and good raw DPS)
Lightning guardians (100k AP)
Artillery guardians (really high single shot damage in the hundreds of thousands)
Raider guardians (maybe 1/5 reduction at best and still fairly high raw dps)

The other two common ones left that are supposed to be doing damage are beam and flak guardians, which don't even break armor (which I consider 20% reduction or less) on bombers so more is fairly useless. All this really would do is make Tanks relatively much harder for the players to kill than the AI. Unless that's what you want, to have more AI only or weak-for-player-but-good-for-AI ships.