Author Topic: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote  (Read 5828 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2010, 01:14:32 pm »
Keith or Chris, what's the fastest way for us to test all these ship types out?  Is there a "practice mode" where we can build each ship type and try it out in a normal game?  Surely there's got to be a better way than spending thousands of hours playing through different campaigns.
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2010, 01:20:30 pm »
Use omega machine cheat a bunch and use a ton of engineers to pump out tons of units to go hog wild with. Use get angry to up AIP if desired, be peaceful to decrease if desired, and "warp in the clowns" to start a wave for defense testing.

Making a bunch of omega machines by copypasting text
1) Turn on cheats
2) press enter
3) Type "Activate the Omega"
4) Press ctrl-shift-home to select all
5) Press ctrl-c
6) Press enter
7) Press enter
8) press ctrl-v
9) Press enter
repeat 7-9 ten times

Do the same with "give me k" for knowledge to mk3 everything

Congrats. You now have a bunch of resources to test ships to your heart's content! Try various different planets with various different setups of ships. If you lose the fleet it's not a big deal because you have all engineers unlocked and 20k resources/s and 10 million power. You can quickly and fairly risk free see what ships work well in what situations against what. Using AI difficulty 7.6 or 8 is what I would recommend, because 8 is a lot more punishing of mismatches and will make things far more obvious, 7.6 is if you aren't hardcore enough to do 8+ anyway so you can still kind of see what's what but have something more appropriate to your game style. the difference between 7.6 and 8 is pretty big though. If you want to try a different bonus ship, there is no hour-long wait to build up at the start. Just quit, choose a different ship and have at it. You're back to full fleet strength in 5 minutes. I do this every time something significant changes or I have a doubt or idea about a ship. Just keep in mind that this will gloss over resource or power costs, so if it is a high cost to effectiveness ship like raiders, actual gameplay may be much much harder than this test mode compared to other ships. That is mostly just applicable to raiders and space planes though. Raiders from build cost and planes from power. Etherjets are also high power, but they're awesome enough to be entirely worth it, in case that ninjas you as well.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 01:26:39 pm by Suzera »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2010, 01:27:16 pm »
Yea, that's what I do for live-fire testing.

There's also the reference tab for some baseline numbers.

I'm also working on a numeric model for achieving ballpark-balance:

http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,7812.0.html

Still not sure if it's workable, feedback is much appreciated on that :)
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2010, 01:31:43 pm »
Yea, that's what I do for live-fire testing.

There's also the reference tab for some baseline numbers.

I'm also working on a numeric model for achieving ballpark-balance:

http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,7812.0.html

Still not sure if it's workable, feedback is much appreciated on that :)

That is, without question, the best possible way to resolve balance issues. Any analysis by players is going to be massively subjective, and as more and more bonus ships are added to the game those analyses are going to become more and more mixed. With the constant danger that only a tiny minority of players post on the forums, a small sample space of balance perspectives spread over a large diversity of ship types is liable to lead to some seriously wild balance swings while trying to find a happy medium. Something objective and statistically driven could inform these sorts of decisions far better, if it could be made to work.

Offline superking

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2010, 01:50:31 pm »
Yea, that's what I do for live-fire testing.

There's also the reference tab for some baseline numbers.

I'm also working on a numeric model for achieving ballpark-balance:

http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,7812.0.html

Still not sure if it's workable, feedback is much appreciated on that :)

That is, without question, the best possible way to resolve balance issues. Any analysis by players is going to be massively subjective, and as more and more bonus ships are added to the game those analyses are going to become more and more mixed. With the constant danger that only a tiny minority of players post on the forums, a small sample space of balance perspectives spread over a large diversity of ship types is liable to lead to some seriously wild balance swings while trying to find a happy medium. Something objective and statistically driven could inform these sorts of decisions far better, if it could be made to work.

I completely oppose your oppinion :P mathmatical balancing is only good for making rough foundations.. incremental changes based on player feedback and metagame trends are the best way to acheive fine balance (ie, what we now need to).. but I posted in all in that thread

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2010, 01:52:31 pm »
I completely oppose your oppinion :P mathmatical balancing is only good for making rough foundations
I wouldn't put it quite as strongly but I'm actually much closer to superking's position on that.  However, my goal is just that: rough foundations.  Not total gem-perfect balance.  That comes later, by other means.

Because what I'm seeing right now is that we don't have rough foundations of balance :)
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2010, 01:57:41 pm »
incremental changes based on player feedback and metagame trends are the best way to acheive fine balance (ie, what we now need to).. but I posted in all in that thread

That might be true if the number of vocal players outnumbered the number of bonus ships being balanced by a factor of, say, 10 or 100. As it stands, I think we've actually got fewer players contributing to balance discussions than we have ships being balanced. The sample space is just WAY too small for the number of variables being covered.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2010, 02:05:32 pm »
That might be true if the number of vocal players outnumbered the number of bonus ships being balanced by a factor of, say, 10 or 100. As it stands, I think we've actually got fewer players contributing to balance discussions than we have ships being balanced. The sample space is just WAY too small for the number of variables being covered.
This does get at one of the big drivers behind what I'm trying to do; with 50+ types to balance and frequent changes both to ship stats and relevant game rules, no one player can reasonably have a broad picture of actual effectiveness of _everything_ in the actual current version.  Just not humanly feasible.  And with frequent iteration it's quite possible that several types won't even be in any game being played by an actively contributing forum member, so we wouldn't get any data on those.  You guys are absolutely invaluable in getting balance info, and a numeric model can't match the quality of that, but we're also just lacking on a quantity-level in basic info and sanity checks because there aren't enough of us.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 02:39:35 pm »
in weigh in, but pretty much all i would say is:

everything except autobombs:dies too much. Hate having to rebuild/micromanage

autobombs: teh win.

spire gravity things (aoe slow): THE MOST annoying unit for the AI to have. Makes scouting impossible. Worse than when aoe stuff would hit scouts. Seriously.
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Offline Invelios

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2010, 04:01:46 pm »
Quote
Force Field Bearers -  Current godship. Overlapping forcefields and an MRS means never losing ships except to ion cannons. Haven't used since the recent health change, but I imagine they are still #1. Only counter to autobombs, so if you don't take these and the AI gets autobombs, it is like moving the difficulty up by 1. These should really just be a regular default start ship, but cost a lot more knowledge (like 3000 mk1/6000 mk2/9000 mk3, they're that good and I would still do it right now at times) and start entirely locked since they are so unique, so irreplaceable, and so necessary to counter specific units.

Wait, how do FFB help with autobombs? I'm currently playing my first game vs level 7 AIs, and I have FFB and they have autobombs. My FFB don't seem to help at all. The autobombs just go under my forcefields and blowup, causing lots of damage. Granted I was trying to capture a Mark IV planet with only mark II fighters/bombers and Mark 1 of everything else (and actually managed to take it too, just took a few tries. Diff 7 is turning out to be way tougher than the Diff 5 game I just beat), but even when I invaded a Mark 1 planet later the autobombs still hurt me quite a lot when I had FFB. (Just to clarify, the unit you are calling FFB are the same as the unit called Shield Bearers now, right?)

Anyways, other than that I haven't had enough time due to college to play many games, here a some ideas on the few units I have played around with:

Spire Blade spawners: I like them. The blades travel quite far on a planet so they can take out lone units easily instead of having your fleet chase after them, unless said unit is blade immune. The only thing I don't like about them is how the spawned blades make an explosion sound when they die. After taking a planet, if it has a capturable, the spawners will keep spawning blades since there is technically an "enemy unit", so you have to deal with constant explosions till either you kill it, or capture it. Very annoying.

Spire Maws: Interesting unit. I mostly like them, but they take a very long time to "eat" the units. Possibly consider increasing the speed they damage "eaten" units some.

Sintenal Frigates: Very annoying in the hands of the AI. In players hands they can be helpful, taking out far away units.

Zienith Viral shreders: Besides lagging my laptop, which is the only computer I have right now, I mostly like them. They gain numbers rather quickly, but with quite a lot of blade immune ships, don't seem overpowered. The only time they feel overpowered is when a player uses a parasite ship to get a few. Just 2-3 of them become 100s in seconds, even Mark IVs. Consider making them impossible to reclaim. It seems more "fair" to have all those ships if you started with one or got them from ARS, but with the way leech starships are you can just get a whole shipcap from the AI. I personally think Leeching should never get you shipcap of ships you don't "own", just a small amount you can use. Which is why I suggested the limitation of 10% (or some other low percent) shipcap on the parasite topic.

Chameleons: Interesting Idea, but very hard to find use for. Ambushing looks to be a good use for them, so give them bonuses against the types of things you can ambush. That or give them higher attack, but not very survivable. So they ambush, but die rather quickly if the ambush didn't work right (like trying to ambush too many units, or too strong of a unit.) These are the ones I've used the least, so I might be giving an inaccurate account of their balance.

Final Note: Not sure if it matters, but my playstyle is to take most of the ARS (A least 3, usually 4 or all 5), and always get an advanced factory. I also like building many spirecraft and capturing at least 1 golem. Basically I love messing around with lots of interesting units, so that type of playstyle could be affecting how I view ships effectiveness. I never try to compare the bonus ships to the triangle ships either, cause I feel there is a reason you give us the triangle ships every game and not the bonus ones. Triangle ships are supposed to be general-effectiveness type ships, while bonus ships should feel unique in use, at least that's how I feel.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:07:37 pm by Invelios »

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2010, 04:14:46 pm »
minor question - are we considering ships that the ai can use very well (eyebots, stuff that shoots turrets), yet the player cant use as well, 'balanced'?

for all intents and purposes, are there going to be ships that are not chosen because they are mainly for the ai's use? And is this something that is good?

For instance, tachyon microfighters might not be an ideal ship to start with.. But for the AI, its an easily reinforced tachyon item that will make scouting hell for you, even after you blow up the tachyon guardians.

Eyebots excel at screwing up your power planets under ff etc.. yet for the player, not really fantastic at blowing up ai shielded targets.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2010, 04:16:09 pm »
minor question - are we considering ships that the ai can use very well (eyebots, stuff that shoots turrets), yet the player cant use as well, 'balanced'?
No.  For my purposes at least, I care about "how does X compare to Y when picking my first bonus ship type" and "how does X compare to Y when determining how many times to smash my head into the wall when I get something from an ARS". :)
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2010, 04:23:34 pm »
Wait, how do FFB help with autobombs? I'm currently playing my first game vs level 7 AIs, and I have FFB and they have autobombs. My FFB don't seem to help at all. The autobombs just go under my forcefields and blowup, causing lots of damage. Granted I was trying to capture a Mark IV planet with only mark II fighters/bombers and Mark 1 of everything else (and actually managed to take it too, just took a few tries. Diff 7 is turning out to be way tougher than the Diff 5 game I just beat), but even when I invaded a Mark 1 planet later the autobombs still hurt me quite a lot when I had FFB. (Just to clarify, the unit you are calling FFB are the same as the unit called Shield Bearers now, right?)

Unless I am missing something, my ships do not all redline whenever they get hit with a mk 3 autobomb when I have SBs over everything, vs there suddenly being huge chunks of red health bars in the blob when I don't. I'll doublecheck when I get home. AI tends to not have autobombs when I play so I may have missed it ignoring force fields. I'll run a cheaty test on it in a few hours. If it does not in fact ignore force fields, then it prevents 100 ships taking damage and reduces it to one ship's worth of damage (even great difference if you factor in all the bombers it saves).

And yeah. I still call frigates cruisers now and then too and have to edit my posts every other time I bring them up. :( I guess I should start calling them SBs instead.

Edit: FFB->SB
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:28:09 pm by Suzera »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2010, 05:27:41 pm »
By the way, I was wrong about bulletproofs having 50% higher reload time; that code would produce 5% greater reload time but due to it being in seconds instead of cycles now that just rounded to the same number (4 seconds).
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Offline Suzera

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Re: Making All ARS Unlocks Attractive - Come Vote
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2010, 05:29:47 pm »
I don't suppose it could display decimals to two places out if present could it? That could be a really big deal if it is 1 vs 1.25 or something like that.
Edit: or is it actually 4 seconds in function too and not just a display bug?