Author Topic: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds  (Read 4365 times)

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 06:26:58 pm »
as long as the AI has an active warp gate on a planet I don't really see a lore reason why they can't have simply warped all of them back home to load up.

Warp gates have only ever worked one-way up 'til now. Not that I'm arguing that the lore can't be fiddled with in order to make gameplay work, just pointing it out to be pedantic, really.  :P

And this finally explains carriers attacking me out of ends of the universe that I hadn't alerted and that I was keeping the border threat controlled on. I knew I wasn't crazy! (at least in this instance)

Offline Catma

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2012, 12:30:17 am »
Hrmph. I still see it as a case of AI cheating, and it's still pretty bad in terms of lore. It has to be explained away or rationalized - it's not something you'd expect. I'm not sure why the logic of carrier-ing doesn't require units to be on the same planet as the carrier. The carrier could visit the worlds it needed reach to in turn. But I suppose during that time you'd have 4000+ threat wandering around.... Do you have a method to check whether worlds are contiguously controlled by the AI? It would be better to limit the teleporting to local areas, if such exist. I guess it's a complicated problem.  :-\

Anyway, now that I know the mechanics I can deal with it, and once you expect it, it is less shocking to see.

Another way to toy with the AI in this situation is to move your defenses. It's redeploying based on the firepower or something in the border worlds, and if you pull back it may be lured into leaving forces on those worlds.

Cool about the pause. I now realize i noticed that you can scrap during pause as well. What about the two barracks though? I thought it was one max?

Thanks for taking the time to look into it and clarifying!

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 10:04:02 am »
The carrier could visit the worlds it needed reach to in turn. But I suppose during that time you'd have 4000+ threat wandering around....
Yea, that's why it's a pretty brute force thing: the purpose of the mechanic isn't challenge, really, it's to save your computer from the consequences of simulating tens of thousands of individual threat ships (while they're in the carrier they basically don't exist except as a single number that doesn't do any sim).  Before carriers, if the AI sent a wave of over 2000 ships it was truncated to 2000 ships.  This wasn't great :)

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Do you have a method to check whether worlds are contiguously controlled by the AI? It would be better to limit the teleporting to local areas, if such exist.
It's fairly easy to do that, yes, and since the "where do I spawn this carrier?" logic doesn't happen much it could afford to do that.  And yesterday while I was in there I was sorely tempted to go ahead and have it start respecting "the player has cut me off" and just spawn the carrier locally, but I have a limited amount of time to spend on AIW during AVWW development and there are some higher priority things for me right now.  This would be a semi-complicated thing to do, to make sure it didn't create cases where your cpu is melting down because carriers are no longer able to do their threat-hoovering job.

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Anyway, now that I know the mechanics I can deal with it, and once you expect it, it is less shocking to see.
I was hoping it would help.  And I think something less shocking in general can happen later, just got to triage things.  My next item, for example, is dealing with another fairly annoying aspect of carriers: the invincible-while-X-other-AI-ships-are-on-the-planet tomfoolery.  It's also necessary to avoid cpu melting from the player simply popping 10 carriers in a short period of time, but it makes defending against really large incoming forces artificially difficult sometimes because you've got these ff-immune invinicible things just kind of cruising through.  So going for a lateral solution in cases where the player pops one and there's not comfortable room for it to dump all its contents.

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Another way to toy with the AI in this situation is to move your defenses. It's redeploying based on the firepower or something in the border worlds, and if you pull back it may be lured into leaving forces on those worlds.
The explosive redeployment just pulls all the "consumed" threat back to a carrier on the AI homeworld (if any, there's some other logic for picking a spawn point if the game's already been won), and it doesn't pay attention to your deployments in that.

Threat ships in general, however, don't go through a wormhole if there isn't enough of them waiting near the wormhole to go through that they think they have a chance.  And since all a CPA is doing is freeing ships to become threat (or combining them into a carrier which in turn is a threat ship), that "should I go through?" logic is still there.

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Cool about the pause. I now realize i noticed that you can scrap during pause as well. What about the two barracks though? I thought it was one max?
The place I was looking I saw 1 barracks for each AI player, which I think is allowed in the rules.

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Thanks for taking the time to look into it and clarifying!
You're welcome, thanks for your patience :)
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2012, 11:30:34 am »
About the barracks: I definitely saw that in the save there were two barracks on one of the planets. Was the second barracks supposed to be a carrier instead? Don't really know the intended rules for those kinds of things.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 11:48:12 am »
I wish someone had been around to tell me this when I was asking about it a year ago. I don't know if Chris didn't understand me, or I didn't understand him, or if he just didn't know that extra threat magically teleported to carriers on the homeworld. Giving me crazy explanations about random threat migrating across the galaxy and ending up clumping on a crossroads world and turning into a carrier. Sheesh. But it's nice to finally have that mystery solved.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2012, 11:56:02 am »
One thing to bear in mind is that a year ago all this could have been different logic :)
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2012, 01:08:04 pm »
One thing to bear in mind is that a year ago all this could have been different logic :)

It all made sense for a minute. Now nothing makes sense any more!

Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2012, 01:28:21 pm »
About the barracks: I definitely saw that in the save there were two barracks on one of the planets. Was the second barracks supposed to be a carrier instead? Don't really know the intended rules for those kinds of things.

Quite normal, one for each of the AI Players.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Minotaar

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 08:13:28 am »
Speaking of nothing making sense...
I think I managed to break actual everything this redeployment mechanic is concerned with  :D With pictures, too!
I activated a core CPA post, which freed ALL THE THINGS in the universe. Then I paused and watched the threat counter go up and down in 200's as ships redeployed to carriers  :) The carriers proceeded on their way, deploying and destroying everything in their path... then as the threat ships were 2 hops away from my territory, the HQ recalled them back to the homeworld. They moved down the same path again, deploying to whack at the 2bil HP armor inhibitor, 2 hops away, pop, back again. And so they circled around happily thereafter, while I was murdering the homeplanet and the Avenger. Actually one time the carriers spawned on the home I was attacking. Then they just stood there, not deploying and not moving to the next planet even though I had over 1k ships sitting right beside them. Then I accidentally right-clicked one of the carriers.. yeah, had to reload that one. Thanks for the new toggle, Keith! Now could you please do something about this perpetuum mobile?   ;D
The save is with the attack force sitting on the homeworld wormhole. Send some ships in to unleash the onslaught.  :D


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 08:58:55 am »
I activated a core CPA post, which freed ALL THE THINGS in the universe.
You pulled the lever!

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Then I paused and watched the threat counter go up and down in 200's as ships redeployed to carriers  :) The carriers proceeded on their way, deploying and destroying everything in their path... then as the threat ships were 2 hops away from my territory, the HQ recalled them back to the homeworld.
Yeesh.  I'm guessing that's from something in 5.024, I'll check it out when I have some AIW time, thanks for the save.

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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 02:02:28 pm »
I've noticed this too. It seems like the AI is sometimes allowed to "fast travel" its ships along planets it (or its AI ally) owns, instead of always having slowly move their ships across the galaxy. Moderately long time players may remember when the AI's ether jets would sometimes jump across the galaxy in a single wormhole jump when it was tractoring one of your ships, taking your ship across the galaxy too. That is what confirmed the behavior for me, I had only suspected it before them. The AI is generally good about not cheating like this when you are looking. (And yes, this is true cheating, as the AI is violating mechanics of how ships interact with wormholes)
It seems really dumb, and is a mechanic I would love to see gone.
Wait, what?

I'm not aware of any mechanic that actually transfers a ship in that way.  There's scrap-waves that can destroy a ship and recombine it into an attack wave, and there's another mechanic where guarding AI ships can be "traded up" into higher marks if there's too many, but nothing like what you described.  If you can reproduce the etherjet tractoring you through a wormhole to a distant planet, please mantis it :)  There was a bug at some point where the tractored ship would show up on the destination (adjacent, legitimately-traveled-to) planet at the same point they were on the other planet, but we fixed that a while ago and it wasn't what you're describing there.

OK, I think I found what was causing the etherjet tractoring my ships across the galaxy thing.

What happens in the case where a etherjet tractor holding a ship dies but gets regenerated by a regenerator astro train? I think it not only get regenerated on some random planet, but it takes the ship it was tractoring with it. I have a game with both an AI with etherjet tractors and astro trains turned on, and one time, all of a sudden, I got like 400 firepower threat (which was like 1000 ships or something). Opening up the galaxy view, I saw like a bunch of random AI planets blinking like they do when a ship of yours has been damaged on it recently. I also noticed the planet I was deep striking had a regenerator train on it.

It will be tricky to reproduce, but if I do, I'll post a save.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 02:07:07 pm »
Maws get regenerated with ships inside them too iirc.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 09:12:25 pm »
Maws get regenerated with ships inside them too iirc.

This issue and the tractor unit issue have been "mantised"

6639: Tractor and Eating Units Take what they are carrying with them when regenerated