Author Topic: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?  (Read 1529 times)

Offline Jesterman

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Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« on: August 21, 2010, 10:21:34 pm »
I've been playing a game now for 19+ hours and have, dissapointingly, not really run into these massive multi-thousand unit battles i have seen on youtube or even as advertised (dont get me wrong, i absolutely adore the game) i am wondering though if i might have messed something up somewhere (an option maybe?) as most planets, even the core worlds, seem to have only maybe 1000~ units. I cant remember the spacific AI types, but they arent anything that lists low planet defense. Help?

Offline carlosjuero

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 10:24:39 pm »
It usually takes a combination of AI difficulty level and time in the game for you to start seeing huge numbers, not to mention the latest Beta versions have lowered encounter sizes a little bit. On AI level 6 ~30 hours in I regularly see incursions of around 1500 - 2000 ships attacking a single system.

With current versions of the game you won't often see large #'s of AI ships just hanging around their worlds, ships over a certain amount are either released to attack you or put in Barracks now.

Offline Jesterman

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 10:32:02 pm »
It usually takes a combination of AI difficulty level and time in the game for you to start seeing huge numbers, not to mention the latest Beta versions have lowered encounter sizes a little bit. On AI level 6 ~30 hours in I regularly see incursions of around 1500 - 2000 ships attacking a single system.

With current versions of the game you won't often see large #'s of AI ships just hanging around their worlds, ships over a certain amount are either released to attack you or put in Barracks now.

Hmm.
So then explain this one to me, from what i had understood, many units would stay at their guard posts unless a certain number of units, or a spacific type of unit was present that overrode that rule. Now it seems, unless its a rediculously low amount of units, and even then that isnt the case, that no matter what you do, the entire planet attacks , abandoning guard posts. Is this intentional?

Even though I've had this game since before zenith remnant, i havent played in a looooong time so many changes (and a lil forgetfulness) has me somewhat baffled as to why some things are as they are

Offline x4000

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 10:50:12 pm »
One thing to bear in mind about AI War is that most of the rules can be violated or adjusted by one AI type or another.  So if you're playing against a Tag Teamer AI type, then that would explain the behavior you are seeing with all the ships attacking you at once.  Generally that's what it would be.

I don't know what version you are playing, either.  If you're on the latest betas, we've intentionally cut the AI's ship counts rather severely; they max out at around 2200 ships per normal planet, and around 2600 ships per AI planet.  But, there are often other things that can make the ship counts higher (such as a barracks releasing ships, etc), and the cross-planet attacks can involve literally tens of thousands of ships from multiple planets depending on the number of players and the difficulty.  Even a single group of waves can have multiple thousands of ships, for example.

The other thing about planet reinforcements is that generally the planets have to be on alert before they will start accumulating large numbers of ships.  So, if you don't park your fleet right next to the home planets of the AIs (which it's wise to avoid, eh?), then the ship counts there will stay relatively low.  But when you attack them, the ship counts will skyrocket pretty fast.

The emphasis on these later versions of the game is less about huge numbers of ships in EVERY battle, and more about varied battles with lots of interesting challenges.  It also helps to keep the speed of the game up at all times, since usually this keeps the total ship counts more like 30k-70k on average, rather than 50k-100k, in long games on difficulty 7+.

It sounds like you might be on a really low difficulty, but it's hard to say.  It could also be the map type, such as X or Snake or similar, which would see more diffuse reinforcements throughout the galaxy if you were successfully on a rampage in the adjacent planets.  I just started a new game on difficulty 7 on an X map, and mostly I'm seeing around 600ish units per planet on the nearby planets, and I'm about 2ish hours in.  This seems about right, and is really giving my team of 4 players a challenge because of the nature of the units, the guard posts, fortresses, and other special weapons there.  We're still expanding reasonably rapidly, but that will slow down as the ship counts are creeping upwards around the map, etc.

Hope that helps!  If you're still in doubt, you could also post your save so that others could look at it and see how it seems.
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Offline Jesterman

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 11:02:42 pm »
One thing to bear in mind about AI War is that...

First, I'm honored that I got a reply from you!

Now I'm certain i dont have tag team, and I believe I had the difficulty set to 6 for both AIs. I'm guessing that the general difficulty of the game has gone down over the months? As I recall, way back when zenith first came out, (which was shortly before I took a hiatus from the game), a level 6 AI could still be quite punishing.

For the sake of my sanity, What do most people chose for their AI difficulties in a single player game? (i would play multi player but it seems that so many people I know cant wrap their heads around this gem of a game)

EDIT: also i have realistic map type, 100 planets

Offline x4000

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 11:20:58 pm »
No worries, it's my pleasure. ;)

As far as the difficulty is concerned, I would not say it has gone down -- perhaps in the latest betas it may have, but that's a temporary thing if so.  The general experience has been that the difficulty has been creeping up and up and up, and so I have recently done some things to cut it back a tad, but at the same time a lot of new stuff has been added for the AI in the form of all their new guard posts, the new barracks, etc.

That said, with any major rebalancement we're unlikely to get it right on the first go.  What I can say is that I've lost or stalemated 6 of the last 7 games I've played in 2010, at difficulty 7 (my team just lost the 6th last weekend in my absence, and we started a new one).  So far, in the first twoish hours of the next game, it is seeming easier, but then again it always seems easier at the start.  I thought we were going to steamroll the last one, too, but after 18 hours we got rolled by a 13k-ship cross planet attack.

With the newer versions, the idea is to be having many fewer stalemates, because at least half of all games seemed to be hitting that in the past.  So, now it may feel easier to progress outwards, and this is by design.  However, even with it being easier to progress, it's also harder to defend because of the sneaky counter-attack guard posts from the AI, and all that good stuff.  Granted, not all of them are implemented yet, so that may be further skewing things a bit on the easier side.  But I'm not 100% certain, I don't have enough data yet.  My overall goal was to have games be a bit shorter (because length had been creeping up, too), at around 10-15 hours on average, maybe, instead of 15-25 being more average lately.

As always, though, the difficulty isn't just a simple linear thing.  Some map seeds are, frankly, harder than others.  Sometimes you're surrounding by mark IV planets, sometimes the ARSes are all on heavily-defended planets, and sometimes everything is just a cakewalk because of the planets' layouts.  There are more AI weapons than ever throughout the galaxy, though, so honestly I'd been more worried about it remaining too hard and complex than the other way around until you posted here.

Sometimes a given map TYPE will be really easy or really hard depending on your playstyle.  In the past, snake and tree maps were really easy to defend on, but really easy to get stalemated with.  Now that stalemate risk has been reduced, they may just be easier.  But I don't have a lot of data.  Grid and Hubs maps were always harder, and now with a lot of the new features they are even moreso most likely, because of the emphasis on having to split your fleets for both offensive and defensive maneuvers.

The AI types obviously also have an enormous impact on the difficulty depending on your playstyle, as do the bonus ship types you get, the minor factions and AI plots you have turned on, and so forth and so on.  If you're feeling like you want a challenge and you have the CoN expansion, I'd heartily recommend the hybrid hives as a handy way to get a beating if you'd like one. ;)  Or advanced hives if you REALLY are feeling masochistic.

In all seriousness, those were just slaughtering most players within 2ish hours, and so we toned them down a lot recently, though.  Most of our reports lately have been along those lines (ack! it killed me in X new ways waaay too fast!) rather than the other way around, so some of our rebalancements later have indeed been trying to dial it back, but the overall goal is that the challenge level of difficulties 6, 7, 8, and all the rest would stay roughly the same over time, just with more INTERESTING things at each level.  It's also possible that you're just better now at the game, since you last played; the full AI logic isn't really brought out until difficulty 7, so you might want to graduate to that.  Though actually, lately there are some things that don't even appear until difficulty 8 (see, we keep adding all these new and more difficulty things).

The main difficulty reduction we've made lately has been in the reduction in the AI ship caps, but that was more to reduce grindyness and improve performance in long games (and to shorten games in general) rather than to actually make it easier.  The AI planets are just filled with new, massive, high-health high-attack weapons like the guard posts, ions, fortresses, etc, that should make up for the lower ship cap.  10 of those are often worth several thousand smaller ships, in other words, so the ship count itself can be misleading.

Or that's the idea -- whether the balance is exactly right yet or not is of course something that could be debated quite a lot.  So far it's looking about right, but the jury is still out and it's curious your experience with it (I presume you're on the latest betas).  So, I guess we'll just see with time!
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Offline Jesterman

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 11:59:19 pm »
No worries, it's my pleasure. ;)

Yep I'm on the latest beta on the micro expansion.
Thanks though for clearing that all up. I guess the difficulty is about right true. Maybe what I really mean to say is that there is a definite different feel now that there is more emphasis on the newer (and definitely multitudes of times more awesome) guard posts than the sheer number of AI units (which while definitely had its own epic nature, now that i think back, did kinda kill my older computer). Something tells me though that in the next expansion that I heard you hinting at in a different thread (the space anomalies and whatnot) will definitely feed my need for some serious "oh shit" factor hehe.

Once again though, I would, if I could, donate a huge sum to you personally. You represent everything a game developer should be and then some. More power to you and never give up on your passion!

Offline RCIX

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Re: Low ship count. did i do something wrong?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 12:34:49 am »
Once again though, I would, if I could, donate a huge sum to you personally. You represent everything a game developer should be and then some. More power to you and never give up on your passion!
Then join the "i'll buy it because he makes it" club; i'm a member :)
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