Author Topic: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...  (Read 118849 times)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2010, 10:50:19 pm »
I could totally use a banner to flaunt on the eve forums, as soon as it becomes relevant to eve (damn you forum rules x: )
I'm sure i could figure something out..
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Offline Trurl

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2010, 10:55:13 pm »
Gratuitous Space Battles recently did a 75% off steam sale, and it isn't an old game. Maybe Positech would be willing to tell you how that worked out for them?

Anyway, doing a crazy sale as a last resort sounds reasonable. Just make sure it is really really cheap. I personally can't resist super cheap games (I bought GSB for 75% off, even though I didn't have much interest in it), and I think a lot of people are like me.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 10:57:11 pm by Trurl »

Offline x4000

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2010, 11:14:36 pm »
Cliff and I keep in touch pretty closely, actually -- and I know that sale did super well for him. We did a similar sale for ai war, though, and it wasn't the same effect at all. Possibly because it was part of a week where a lot was on sale, but still. I just think there's a lifecycle games need to go through, and if you put them on super sale too early you're doom more harm than good. GSB also had way more press when it went on sale than Tidalis has so far, so that may also have been a factor -- people knee what it was, and were intrigued enough to gamble with a few bucks during such a sale. Maybe I'm being too picky or overthinking it, but that still makes me really uncomfortable.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2010, 11:27:04 pm »
Cliff and I keep in touch pretty closely, actually -- and I know that sale did super well for him. We did a similar sale for ai war, though, and it wasn't the same effect at all. Possibly because it was part of a week where a lot was on sale, but still. I just think there's a lifecycle games need to go through, and if you put them on super sale too early you're doom more harm than good. GSB also had way more press when it went on sale than Tidalis has so far, so that may also have been a factor -- people knee what it was, and were intrigued enough to gamble with a few bucks during such a sale. Maybe I'm being too picky or overthinking it, but that still makes me really uncomfortable.
Well, that, and no offense, but AI War falls just about on the extreme end of hardcore strategy gaming. I'd love to see something with more casual appeal (like SupCom2 without the controversy), whether it be another RTS in teh far future or you doing some heavy work on AI war to give it more of that casual side.
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TheMachineIsSentient

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2010, 11:30:43 pm »
I'd like to post more in-depth later, but I want to object to the casual RTS suggestion... the last thing the world needs is another supreme commander. This game is hardcore, no doubt, but I like it that way. That's why I bought it. If Chris made some watered-down select all-> attack game, I wouldn't have bought it.

Would that be more profitable? Maybe, I don't know. But I wouldn't have bought it. I'm here because I like what the product is, which is a hardcore epic space strategy game with a tremendous AI. Is the kind of game you can play single player and never get bored. I will post more later. Chris, team, I support all of you in your efforts, I will do what I can.

I also want to give a short personal rant... I find it extremely distressing that my absolute favorite company right now ( you guys!) might not be making games anymore. I have gotten endless enjoyment since the day I bought it, more than any game I own; I consider myself a fan. The whole thing... I would be sour if this joyride were to end. Please don't let your hopes get down, don't give up, and please keep the train going, you do have people who know your name and who care about your work...

I work a long day programming and making things work for everybody else. At night, I want to enjoy myself, and there's no game I enjoy better than AI war. Don't let it die.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:35:40 pm by TheMachineIsSentient »

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2010, 11:34:37 pm »
well, look at galcon - that game is pretty much 'select units, attack', yet I've spent a few hours playing the iphone version.. its a delightfully fast paced counterpart to such long 4x-y games..

AI war more or less replaced space empires 4 for me - my biggest problem in turn based games is that id try to micromanage every single unit, only to realize after a while i still havent hit next turn....
And that counterpart, I would be too busy macromanaging id hit next turn far too much :p

Ai war is nicely within the same level of exploration, yet involving less micromanagement per game turn  ;D
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2010, 12:19:44 am »
I'd like to post more in-depth later, but I want to object to the casual RTS suggestion... the last thing the world needs is another supreme commander. This game is hardcore, no doubt, but I like it that way. That's why I bought it. If Chris made some watered-down select all-> attack game, I wouldn't have bought it.

Would that be more profitable? Maybe, I don't know. But I wouldn't have bought it. I'm here because I like what the product is, which is a hardcore epic space strategy game with a tremendous AI. Is the kind of game you can play single player and never get bored. I will post more later. Chris, team, I support all of you in your efforts, I will do what I can.

I also want to give a short personal rant... I find it extremely distressing that my absolute favorite company right now ( you guys!) might not be making games anymore. I have gotten endless enjoyment since the day I bought it, more than any game I own; I consider myself a fan. The whole thing... I would be sour if this joyride were to end. Please don't let your hopes get down, don't give up, and please keep the train going, you do have people who know your name and who care about your work...

I work a long day programming and making things work for everybody else. At night, I want to enjoy myself, and there's no game I enjoy better than AI war. Don't let it die.
The main reason i don't play AI war is because i get into it, and i feel a little lost in all of the complexity; i don't really have any clearly defined goals other than "go kill the homeworlds" which takes a lot of buildup and work to get to. More often than not, i quit pretty quickly because i'm just wandering around destroying stuff. I most definitely agree that it shouldn't be a "select all -> attack" game, but the way it is now it takes some effort to just get into it, which is hard sometimes (i prefer more fast-paced action generally, though i do like grand strategy). Don't get me wrong, it's a great game, but you're losing out an a tremendous potential market that loves games like SupCom2 and such.

My idea for this is to take the smaller starts (30 and lower), and apply some sort of rebalancing algorithm that makes them more reasonable to play (maybe bumps up caps so you can take homeworlds with less knowledge, increases unit stats, things like that). At that level even, the scale is several times larger than the largest SupCom2 (or FA) game. That way they're not sort of fringe options where few people use them.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 12:24:35 am by RCIX »
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2010, 12:29:03 am »
The "fast action, light strategy" crowd tends to be much more interested in flashy graphics than the "deep strategy" crowd, I think chasing after them is probably a misuse of resources and certainly not worth compromising the vision behind AI War. Hardcore strategy does just fine for itself, and I gather AI War was doing just fine within that market until just recently. I get the sense the larger problem is Tidalis' sales, and that's got to be as simple as a lack of exposure in the right venues. Let's face it, most of Arcen's pre-existing fanbase is a bunch of hardcore strategy gamers. We'll buy most anything they put out, but our ability to circulate useful word of mouth for a casual puzzle game (albeit a brilliant one) is pretty limited, we just don't run in the right circles.

Offline RCIX

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2010, 12:55:11 am »
The "fast action, light strategy" crowd tends to be much more interested in flashy graphics than the "deep strategy" crowd, I think chasing after them is probably a misuse of resources and certainly not worth compromising the vision behind AI War. Hardcore strategy does just fine for itself, and I gather AI War was doing just fine within that market until just recently. I get the sense the larger problem is Tidalis' sales, and that's got to be as simple as a lack of exposure in the right venues. Let's face it, most of Arcen's pre-existing fanbase is a bunch of hardcore strategy gamers. We'll buy most anything they put out, but our ability to circulate useful word of mouth for a casual puzzle game (albeit a brilliant one) is pretty limited, we just don't run in the right circles.
Its not that i want AI war to be light on strategy, just that i want a format of AI war that takes less than 10 hours minimum to complete. :P
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2010, 12:57:27 am »
Its not that i want AI war to be light on strategy, just that i want a format of AI war that takes less than 10 hours minimum to complete. :P
So do I, actually; I just don't have that much time to play games :)  I'm hoping to be able to do something about this via a scenario editor feature in a future expansion; the trick here is getting to make a future expansion ;)

Edit: and to be fair, 10 isn't the absolute minimum, some players are pretty used to 8 hour games it seems, but they're fairly advanced.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2010, 01:06:43 am »
i finished my first game in around 10 hours, that seems about right for a 40 planet map.. i could certainly see people being less, but as i mentioned someplace else - you play <random rpg> for considerably more than 10 hours per save, why not a strategy game?

<random rpg list>
Elder scrolls (morrowind/oblivion)
fallout
dragon age
mass effect
x3tc
substitute this with your own personal favorite
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2010, 01:12:05 am »
Yea, I loved those RPG's; I clocked in over 80 hours on some of them (like first playthrough of Xenogears, which I finished in a bit over a week; ah the school days...).

I think the desire for a shorter game is valid; getting that to fit the vision for AI War is trickier, but we'll see.  The basic idea is roughly the same as some player posting a save from a particularly interesting part of one of their games, and you can pick it up to see if you can accomplish the immediate objectives (as well or better than the original) or even try to finish the game.
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Offline cpunch

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2010, 01:36:08 am »
I think that with some effort getting some new talk out amongst reviewers wouldn't be impossible.  The big thing that I see AI War having apart from the crowd is the ridiculous amount of iterative growth and feedback.  While remaining, fundamentally, the same game it is still almost indistinguishable in 3.189 from launch, and that's before you take into account adding Zenith and Neinzul content.  AI War isn't a static product, it isn't a launch-and-forget game like so much of the competition.  It's not about $10 DLC every month after launch until a sequel is announced.  It's a game that evolves and grows organically and seeing what can be done about getting re-reviews from people who wrote about it way back in the day could go a long way towards getting more good publicity.

That's a matter of marketing, though, and requires working with other people to get the idea set right..  What you really need are cleaner trailers.  Tidalis, for instance, in watching the trailers on Steam and actually having played the game.  It makes sense, look, those streams don't exist in other games!  But take a step back and realize that to the lay viewer, it just looks like generic-tile-game with more flash, despite promises about gameplay modes and new mechanics.  Develop a trailer around explaining how the game plays and it might actually make people more curious.

AI War is a different beast altogether.  Your trailer for the base version, at least on Steam, spends it's time trying to explain what's going on when it just simply won't make sense to people.  You see some stuff move around, there's probably an explosion, then stuff moves around again and you explain "look the AI has flanked."  It makes sense when you've played the game and are familiar with _what_ is going on, but not to a lay observer.  I think there's something to be said to trying to develop a trailer that creates a narrative.  Takes it away, paradoxically, from being about "look at the amazing AI" and make it a story about taking back the universe.  In fact, I just now watched the Zenith trailer and it ironically missteps by taking the right tone for the wrong audience.  People considering the expansions will buy on the basis of liking the game and wanting to know what the expansion adds in a cost:reward valuation.  People considering the base game will want to know the experience the game will bring them and right now it really seems like word of mouth is a primary driving force, whereas random people spotting the game on Steam or Metacritic have a single trailer.

What's the experience - what's the story?  It's losing the galaxy and the struggle to retake it.  It's commanding epic forces against an inhuman enemy that is smarter and better equipped than you.  It's the player being the hero.  It's what games are supposed to make us - heroes.  Let _that_ be the face of your game and let the players drawn to that idea learn about the AI and the depth of the game by themselves.  The curiosity brought on by a strong trailer will drive them to read reviews about the amazing nature of the game.  A trailer, even with quips of high praise, that focuses on a few blips moving around with an explanation of what is happening is not going to hook.

Offline mlaskus

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2010, 04:55:15 am »
Very nice post cpunch, I agree completely.

Maybe we could brainstorm a few ideas and make some fan trailers of both AI War and Tidalis.
A story driven trailer of AI War could have a really nice impact, sort of like a compact AAR showing some of the key moments in a typical game.
Being at the brink of destruction at first, just starting to fight the AI back. Capturing a system containing infrastructure you need to fight(Adv. Factories). Fighting back against a cross planet attack or some other big assault by the AI and losing some systems. Gaining a foothold near the AI homeworld and the final assault itself... and getting killed by the Avenger? :) Then a fast rewind of the whole video to the very beginning and display "Can you succeed?"/"How would you play?" or some other, more catchy phrase. Then a few flashes of action scenes from different games of AI War could be shown as the background music reaches it's crescendo and finally finish it with another catchy phrase and a link to Arcen's website.

Tidalis needs a trailer that explains exactly how the streams work. I have no idea how it could be done though.

----

Lancefighter, what dimensions would you like those banners in? Any ideas what would like to have on them? I can make some for you.

By the way, Chris, if you started pre-orders of Alden Ridge, I'm sure a lot of us would buy it now.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 06:00:24 am by mlaskus »

Offline getter77

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2010, 08:10:33 am »

Tidalis needs a trailer that explains exactly how the streams work. I have no idea how it could be done though.


Perhaps somebody could make a custom puzzle/record it that specifically looks as flashy as possible but in such a way that it takes more than one click to trigger the lot of it such that shows a bit of the play?  Alternatively, a contrast one that shows various "impossible" situations where you'd just hang it up on another, more typical, match-3 game, but within Tidalis' take on things you can still soldier on?
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