Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...

[Ktoff]

I don't know if you guys know it, but here in Germany there was no test od Ai wars in anny Game magazine so the most people don't know about the game.

This has a lot to do with the fact, that most game magazines rarely review independent titles unless they are well known :-) I wrote to a couple of magazines about this game, but not much happened. Maybe AI War 4.0 will be a new chance, but this is still an indie game and no matter how cool it is, it won't ever be a game for the masses. And it is hard to get a game magazine for the masses to review a independent niche game.

But it would be worth a shot to send the larger magazines in germany a free copy of Ai War 4.0 Ai War has come a long way since i bought it.

[Vinraith]

@Vinraith
RTS games can't tell a story? Have you played Red Alert 2? It is hilarious!
Also, Starcraft II, if you ignore its terrible writing, got the storytelling right.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. For the most part, "story telling" in RTS games means "perform a go-here-do-this series of tasks in the game engine, get rewarded by a story advancing cinematic." To me, that's not the game telling me a story, it's me playing a linear set of largely non-strategic training maps and the game rewarding me with a piece of a movie each time I do so. Strategy games are poorly designed for telling a pre-scripted story through the game play, and that's a good thing. The reason they're so bad at it is that in order to be interesting a strategy game has to give you lots of options, multiple goals, and interesting choices. Forcing a pre-scripted plot into such an open framework is all but impossible, because it's actively working against the strengths of the genre. Like any open game, strategy is always best suited to letting the player tell their own story, to allowing surprises and twists to emerge organically out of the game play itself. If you provide enough depth, enough variety, and enough interesting and difficult choices you're going to get a new narrative every time, which is far more interesting than any pre-rendered cinematic or voice over if you ask me.

[Lancefighter]

I thought Homeworld (the first one) was fairly good at the story bit..

but arent ALL games a series of 'go here, do this, get cutscene with story'?

[mlaskus]

Fair point, RTS games are great at becoming a story as you play. I doubt you will find many people here who would disagree with you.
After all, we all enjoy AI War, which is emergent gameplay at its best.

Red Alert might have been a bad example of a game telling a story, I just love its cinematics, it was a biased choice.
All I really wanted to say, is that RTS games can have a story, it is not playing to the genre's strengths, but it certainly can be done.
Hopefully, without relying on cinematics, but somehow, creatively sneaking it into the gameplay.

I always liked the campaign missions in which you are limited to but a few units, it transforms the game into a sort of a puzzle to solve. I'm sure there are some fun ways of putting constraints on the gameplay to suddenly change the player's experience. Though I'm not suggesting anything like that to be done to AI War, that was just a general remark on my part.

[Lancefighter]

odd, I'm the opposite - nobody should shoehorn an RTS into a tactical game......
Now, dont get me wrong, I love tactical games too (Ground Control was one of my favorites), but they arent meant to be the same type of game 

[mlaskus]

But those missions were rarely tactical. It was just a puzzle.

I have Tanya, she is great but tanks are going to roll over her. Hmm, what should I do? Oh! Barrels! Even a child knows that absolutely all barrels in existence explode! Shoot them Tanya. Ok, that was a nice explosion and it took out the tanks, now let's...

[Ozymandiaz]

odd, I'm the opposite - nobody should shoehorn an RTS into a tactical game......
Now, dont get me wrong, I love tactical games too (Ground Control was one of my favorites), but they arent meant to be the same type of game 

I agree.

As a loose comment to other guys posting here, changing AI War to suit other styles of play is imo not a good idea. Adding optional features, thats  another matter

[Lancefighter]

But those missions were rarely tactical. It was just a puzzle.

I beg to differ - tactics is what happens on the battlefield in a limited scope. Choosing who to shoot at once the sides are engaged in battle is a choice of tactics - shooting a guy with a anti-tank gun over the guy with the machinegun is a tactical choice
Strategy is what happens before people start shooting, when you allocate your resources, move your men, and do things on a large scale - attacking a power plant or factory would be a strategy choice.

What you just described is purely tactical choices 

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I think there could be room for a few tactical scenarios where you're given a set amount of resources and starting ships to work with and a few planets to capture and/or defend.  But that's just for those players who really enjoy the tactical side of the game and want a setup where it's critical.  Everyone else could ignore it

[mlaskus]

Yeah, but in scope of those missions, you didn't have any freedom, you couldn't apply different tactics, there was usually only one correct solution to a given obstacle. So while the decisions were tactical, it really reminded me more of a puzzle game.

@Ozymandiaz
I'm not suggesting any change to AI War's mechanics here, we got a bit off topic.

EDIT:
That's a pretty neat idea Keith. If you made some interesting scenarios available, I guess it could not only be fun but also serve as a nice thing to show to people we would like to convince to play.
Right now I'm a few hours into a campaign with a friend I'm introducing to AI War, and he started complaining that there is not much interesting stuff going on. I guess I chose a too low difficulty for him(7.3) but the time already invested in the match will make it a bit hard to convince him to start a new game. I guess I will just have to show him the nukes, this should spice things up a bit.

[Lancefighter]

2x schizo waves no wave warnings will 'convince' him that there is plenty going on. Also, make sure your not playing against a turtle :p
Consider adding to this the ai modifier where the ai masses waves on a planet and then sends them...

[mlaskus]

Yeah I know that, the thing is, we already played for a while, I wanted to show him stuff from as much of the campaign as I could, hopefully get to the late game. If we started a new game he might get bored replaying the beginning, also I wouldn't want to scare him off by making him get brutally slaughtered, at least not at first. That might give him the wrong impression that the game just spawns masses of enemies.

The scenarios Keith mentioned could be ideal in a situation like this. I guess, it would also require a lot less time than playing the campaign, so it would be easier to persuade people to at least give it a shot.

[Spikey00]

I DOTH PROPAGATE OUR  EMPIRICAL INFLUENCE OVER AT CASTLE AGE:
http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=39863

[TheMachineIsSentient]

We'll have to agree to disagree there. For the most part, "story telling" in RTS games means "perform a go-here-do-this series of tasks in the game engine, get rewarded by a story advancing cinematic." To me, that's not the game telling me a story, it's me playing a linear set of largely non-strategic training maps and the game rewarding me with a piece of a movie each time I do so.

Video games as storytelling vehicles is actually very well-established. Revealing a little bit of story at a time and allowing the player to experience part of it in gameplay form... That's still storytelling. It's more interactive than a book. I agree that may not be right for AI War. Nobody is suggesting mass effect or StarCraft two invade the game; I was referring to something more subtle.

Although, let's not deny that there are story elements in AI War, they're just undeveloped. Look at the zenith faction, the children of neinzul ( I'm assuming that neinzul is a noun, which means story-telling element!), and the short blurb at the opening screen. There is even that creepy voice saying that you have "discovered the zenith remnant," as well as various trash talking throughout the game when you make a mistake.

Yes, this is not Capt. Picard exploring the galaxy, but neither is this a straight simulation. You can portray a universe, you can describe a setting and environment, you can breathe life into a conflict by just sprinkling out a tiny bit of guidance, even with just factions and a short back story. The extra step here to a character with a name is not that far off… It doesn't have to be central to anything. It could be a random boss spawn, or a rescue operation... The idea of randomized surprises in the game that you might only get an opportunity to see, that's compelling.

[eRe4s3r]

I DOTH PROPAGATE OUR  EMPIRICAL INFLUENCE OVER AT CASTLE AGE:
http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=39863

Thread doesn't exist (anymore?) Too much influence? ;P  What was it about?

But arrrrrrrr - Castle Age - Pseudo F2P browser lame sauce game only for facebook junkies and thats good that way - keeps its vile influence away from real games (and real gamers) ;P - not even a game in the sense since you can win without actually playing - in fact, not playing is automagical default victory - you win at life, so to speak Community imploded many months ago due to the developers only catering to the Pay and not the Free 2 play. In fact punishing/obstructing f2p more to favor Pay more.

I am getting old and grumpy, particularly when it comes to pseudo games on Facebook - games that are built on spamming your dudes for pointless in-game rewards are SPAM and the trash of the internet,

Ehem, sorry for OT

And yes, automagical is a word - darn you, Firefox Spellcheck!