Author Topic: Limits to full spire city building  (Read 2240 times)

Offline Qatu

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Limits to full spire city building
« on: September 18, 2014, 06:52:16 am »
 Now that I've played a couple games with nomads+spire, I gotta say that full spire cities not needing conquered neighbours is not only super fun, but also seems balanced by the huge backlash from increased spire cities.

 I'd like to propose that the requirement for spire cities to need fully conquered neighbour systems before being fully upgradable be dropped entirely and without compensation.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 10:42:33 pm »
Now that I've played a couple games with nomads+spire, I gotta say that full spire cities not needing conquered neighbours is not only super fun, but also seems balanced by the huge backlash from increased spire cities.

 I'd like to propose that the requirement for spire cities to need fully conquered neighbour systems before being fully upgradable be dropped entirely and without compensation.

You do realize that Fallen Spire Building provide you with so much firepower both on offensive via the fleet ship that doesn't follow rock, paper, and scissor balance rules, just look at Fallen Spire Super Dreadnought vs a Hunter/Killer mk V stat*, and on the defend. Not to mention HUGE return on investment over long term from habitation 200 metal income PER one of those where most metal mine will just erk at most metal 36 income at mark 3 with most system averaging 4 to 8 metal mining spot.

There is a reason why the building limit were imposed in the first place and AI has a dedicated exo-wave for Fallen Spire.


*Link to pages: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Spire_Super_Dreadnought
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hunter/Killer

Super Dreadnought has a dps yield of 72,960,000 dmg/sec meanwhile Hunter/Killer has just merely 21,666,667 dmg/sec. Those ships ONLY show up as allies, not under player control, once you finish the final stage of Fallen Spire campaign and at that point you pretty much just steamrolled over AI.

Offline Qatu

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 11:43:12 pm »
 The thing is that the spire story line is harder then the base game as are the other win conditions, and succeeding the shard returns is actually really hard without enough territory conquest. Also also it's one of those things that can be gamed super hard, say for example by carefully choosing a perfect x map or maze map to really minimize the number of planets needed to be taken and then save/loading the shard locations in conquered systems.

 And now that I've played building cities on nomads I had lots of fun but still needed to take territory to succeed the spire storyline since otherwise I would have had to save/reload really hard to win and I don't enjoy that. Overall I felt that I would likely turn on and use spire more often if it was always like this, with higher risk/rewards possibities, I'd at least like to give it a try.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2014, 04:26:41 am »
The thing is that the spire story line is harder then the base game as are the other win conditions, and succeeding the shard returns is actually really hard without enough territory conquest.
Which is fine, since the Fallen Spire mode is designed as a more conquest oriented game-mode.

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Also also it's one of those things that can be gamed super hard, say for example by carefully choosing a perfect x map or maze map to really minimize the number of planets needed to be taken and then save/loading the shard locations in conquered systems.
Which is also fine, since players are not competing against each other. Instead, each player chooses whatever setup he thinks will entertain or challenge himself when fighting the AI. Want an easy game, choose an easy map. Want an even easier game, use save and reloading liberally.

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And now that I've played building cities on nomads I had lots of fun but still needed to take territory to succeed the spire storyline since otherwise I would have had to save/reload really hard to win and I don't enjoy that. Overall I felt that I would likely turn on and use spire more often if it was always like this, with higher risk/rewards possibities, I'd at least like to give it a try.
A much more interesting argument.

I like the current approach because it makes the distinction between level 1 and level 2 spire cities meaningful: You cannot create chokepoints for regular AI waves that have level 2 spire cities. That makes expansion and site selection for spire cities trickier.

On the other hand, I can also see how your idea could be fun - but it surely would make Fallen Spire considerably easier overall.

That's not necessarily a problem, but it might be a consideration.
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline ulu

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 08:12:28 am »
The thing is that the spire story line is harder then the base game as are the other win conditions, and succeeding the shard returns is actually really hard without enough territory conquest. Also also it's one of those things that can be gamed super hard, say for example by carefully choosing a perfect x map or maze map to really minimize the number of planets needed to be taken and then save/loading the shard locations in conquered systems.

Am I the only one who thinks the spire story is easier than the base game? With the new time limit introduced via the ai-home-assault-exos the base game had become way more difficult.

Offline NickAragua

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 04:15:30 pm »
Am I the only one who thinks the spire story is easier than the base game? With the new time limit introduced via the ai-home-assault-exos the base game had become way more difficult.

I've never actually beaten the game via standard victory condition, my only win was via the spire guys. I'm just completely unable to crack the AI homeworlds on my own.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 04:53:53 pm »
Am I the only one who thinks the spire story is easier than the base game? With the new time limit introduced via the ai-home-assault-exos the base game had become way more difficult.

I've never actually beaten the game via standard victory condition, my only win was via the spire guys. I'm just completely unable to crack the AI homeworlds on my own.
If in doubt, add warheads.
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2014, 02:58:25 am »
Am I the only one who thinks the spire story is easier than the base game? With the new time limit introduced via the ai-home-assault-exos the base game had become way more difficult.

I've never actually beaten the game via standard victory condition, my only win was via the spire guys. I'm just completely unable to crack the AI homeworlds on my own.

I've also never won the game normally. I screwed up my first few games, mostly intentionally by playing around with various things. Then I played my first FS game. I've never looked back. I do however like to do the crazy FS/Golem Hard/Botnet Hard/Spirecraft Hard/Alt Champ games. If only to see if the AI can beat me while I am cheating my butt off with 300% econ, instantly regenerating champion/botnet, and 250,000 starting K. Pro Tip, yes yes it can. Even at 7/7.

Offline Fleet Unity

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Re: Limits to full spire city building
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2014, 03:08:13 am »
Am I the only one who thinks the spire story is easier than the base game? With the new time limit introduced via the ai-home-assault-exos the base game had become way more difficult.

I've never actually beaten the game via standard victory condition, my only win was via the spire guys. I'm just completely unable to crack the AI homeworlds on my own.

I've also never won the game normally. I screwed up my first few games, mostly intentionally by playing around with various things. Then I played my first FS game. I've never looked back. I do however like to do the crazy FS/Golem Hard/Botnet Hard/Spirecraft Hard/Alt Champ games. If only to see if the AI can beat me while I am cheating my butt off with 300% econ, instantly regenerating champion/botnet, and 250,000 starting K. Pro Tip, yes yes it can. Even at 7/7.

I am the same way I never won a normal victory even on 7 without the fallen spire even with just golems the ai can still defeat you if you are not careful I know some think this game is too easy even on 10 but to me 7 is hard even thru careful expanding I am not that high of skill level as some the difficulty 10/10 players but what I never understand is when they say the game is "Too Easy" not in my experience but that is the thing about AI War almost everyone has their own play style and there is no right or wrong way to play this game but for me I think 7 is challenging enough and if they keep making the game harder and harder by buffing the AI and nerfing players ships I may one day just stick with an older version and be done updating, I like this game a lot it is fun but my main point is I guess I never won a game without the fallen spire either.