Author Topic: Liking the new plasma starship  (Read 14714 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2012, 12:43:36 pm »
Well then, I stand corrected!

*hides*
;)  If you have more feedback, I'm sure the entirely-not-in-pursuit-of-the-hiding-player vampire claws will be happy to take a message.

Anyway, I'm confident the starship roster will continue to expand gradually as the game does :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline rchaneberg

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2012, 04:36:25 pm »
I remember the days when fleet ships were just stupid compared to starships. You never needed them, and in fact, all you had to do was run around with your starship ball and win all day long. It wasn't fun because they aren't all that awe-inspiring compared to having a giant fleet. And it wasn't fun because half of the original game was obsolete.
Yes, and I remember you pointing it out at the time; that time in the game's history is precisely why I don't want to make starships significantly more... well, significant ;)  Some need changes to make sure they're interesting choices instead of just "meh", but not much more than that.

If someone wants massive overpowering starships (and an appropriate challenge to use them against), I can quite sympathize, and that's what the FS stuff is there for :)

I love the Spire Capital ships, but I would love for the humans to get some sort of midrange battleship (maybe even modular   ;)), partly because I feel that pursuing to spire campaign to the first city at least is such an optimal play that is hard to resist, especially since I like dealing with all of the exos the campaign can send you. It would be nice to have a human alternative to anchor offensive fleet actions around rather than just using the current starships augment  the spire offensive.

I think what would really be cool is to have a starship line similar to the riot line, perhaps giong Destroyer ->Cruiser-> Battleship. Each of these would have an increasing number of modules with a few dedicated to high power offensive weaponry, and the rest dedicated to short range defensive weapons or utility modules. The idea being that you can customize this ship to complement or augment most mixes of fleet ships, while being strong enough to still be the centerpiece of a raiding group. Maybe with a ship cap of 1 and m/c cost being just on the border of superweapon range.

I also feel a little let down that with the expansions you really start to rely on alien technology, and I would really like the option to occasionally give the AI a good old fashioned human-style thrashing.

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2012, 04:54:59 pm »
just turn off the expansions then :P That's what I did in one of my current games. I enjoy all the superweapons from the expansions. In fact, some of them are often a big part of my strategy. But I had the feeling I was getting spoiled to much with all the big badass guns. So I figured I'd try a base game only campaign and see if I can still actually beat the game on 7/7.
So far I'm enjoying it, even though I do miss all the extra's from the expansions.

Offline rchaneberg

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2012, 05:02:27 pm »
If there was some other source of exos I really would consider that, but because those are only available with Broken Golems, Spirecraft, and Fallen spire respectively I would never want to miss out on the additional challenge. I want to feel like the AI is out for blood as soon as I start gaining ground against it.  I would also have to give up most of the bonus fleetships, the everything AI wouldn't have near as many teeth (not that it needs more or anything ;)), and I'm sure there are many other things that I don't even know that I would lose.

An AI that didn't send waves, but instead charged up relatively brutal exos on it's own would be pretty cool though.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2012, 06:12:16 pm »
So about starships, from what I have read, it seems like a reasonable plan (short of reinventing how to get starship types, which as Keith says, seems unnecessary):

1. Make sure that all the current military starships have a good at ship cap "utility value" (using plasma siege starships and raid starships as examples of military starships with a desirable at ship cap "utility value"), and rebalance lines that seem to be falling short of that goal.
2. Lower the knowledge costs of Mk. II and Mk. III military ships (except for fleet starships, for which their Mk. III and Mk. IV costs would be adjusted, and Riot starships, which have an odd knowledge cost progression and thus need to be considered specially)

Does that seem right?

Offline rickynumber24

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2012, 03:30:52 am »
Well then, I stand corrected!

*hides*
;)  If you have more feedback, I'm sure the entirely-not-in-pursuit-of-the-hiding-player vampire claws will be happy to take a message.

Anyway, I'm confident the starship roster will continue to expand gradually as the game does :)

I'm quite new to playing this game, but I do think chemical_art might have the germ of a good idea here.  I'm just not sure what to do with it, or if we even can do anything with it.  Basically, mostly from looking at the wiki, it seems to me that Light of the Spire included several fleetships that really ought to have been starships, except that starships are always available, and these weren't supposed to be.  In particular, I'm thinking of the Spire Blade Spawner, the Spire Tractor Platform, and the Spire Stealth Battleship, as well as the Spire Maw.  I feel like one ought to be able to do something similar by creating lower marks of the advanced-fab-only starships, but I'm not sure how one would work it in.

Of course, I'd also be inclined to advocate that all the <8 base cap units be turned int starships, with an eye to keeping ultra-low caps reasonable. ;)

Edit: On the other hand, techsy730 has a non-wild-eyed proposal that can be actually worked on in a reasonable time frame. :P
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:34:18 am by rickynumber24 »

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2012, 04:12:36 am »
1. Make sure that all the current military starships have a good at ship cap "utility value" (using plasma siege starships and raid starships as examples of military starships with a desirable at ship cap "utility value"), and rebalance lines that seem to be falling short of that goal.
2. Lower the knowledge costs of Mk. II and Mk. III military ships (except for fleet starships, for which their Mk. III and Mk. IV costs would be adjusted, and Riot starships, which have an odd knowledge cost progression and thus need to be considered specially)

Starship Bombers are good at what they do, as they are.  That is a Fleet Bomber which is instead a starship. 
Normal Caps:
Bomber I: 98 * 9600 / 12 = 78,400/s dps raw, with 6* bonus against some pretty heavy duty stuff, making that 470,000/s optimal.
Bomber SS I: 4 * 140000 / 2 = 280,000 DPS Raw against anything large enough to hit.  No boosters though.

I use Bomber SS a lot against AI Eye worlds and Guardians.  I'm not sure they need adjustment as a unit.  However, at 5000 K to bring to Tech II (7k more to III), they're not versatile enough to invest in.  Particularly not when a Raid SS performs 3x as well for the same general abilities and can hit small ships.  Raids at 4k are worth it because of their amazing abilities.  High speed, FF ignore, and post killing.  They are the goto unit for anti AI Eye worlds except for Spire Shield units. 

So that leaves anti-large unit and anti-fortress as the Bomber SS's niche.  Does it perform so well at MK II that it is nearly worth the upgrade for Fleet Bomber III?  Oh, no.  No it doesn't.  Abilities are fine, K cost is poor.

With the newly rounded pieces behind the upper level of the fleet starships, I'm not sure I see the K value in them.  I've yet to really feel a need for their power, compared to alternatives for the K cost.  Particularly since they don't stack once you've gotten to Zenith your other flagships are really just there as backups.  They're the fleet support ships.  You start with Light, which gives you a 140% boost.  Each flagship increase gives you 30% more boost in the fleet, plus a few more guns in the mob (and these ships are usually hunted down and smashed to pieces quickly). 

At 2000 K a 30% increase across the fleetball could be valuable.

Another 5000 K for another 30% increase to the fleetball.  By ratio, this isn't worth as much.  The difference between a 170% boost and a 200% boost is actually best illustrated by example.  Bombers from above.  A single bomber has an 800 raw dps.  At 170% it's 1360/s.  At 200% it's 1600/s.  A difference of 240 points.  That's actually a 17.6% boost to the last damage boost.  The 230% increase at 7000 MORE K (not total, MORE) is worth even less.

That's 14000 K to bring the fleet starship line up to full strength.  Their primary duty/niche is fleet support.  After Flagships, they're just not worth it.  12000 K is two MK III/IV upgrades, worth far more than a mere 25-30% boost after the double upgrade.

Leech: I leave this evaluation in the hands of someone who actually uses parasites.  They're filler in my fleet.

Plasma Bombards: Small ship eradicators.  If it hides under forcefields it beats them to pieces, if they're free-floating it shuts their engines down.  In small packs quite useful.  However, are they worth the 5/7k price tag to bring up to higher levels?  Not to me, unless I'm playing with odd tactics.  The ff killer ability isn't that powerful because I never use these alone or in small fleets.  They automatically fire up alerts all over the place being a starship.  Thus, if I'm going after a system, I can usually lay waste to any forcefield causing me problems, whacking the little guys underneath is just a bonus.  In the early game this can be a boon, since your fleet vs. ff power is usually weak, but that's for the MK Is.  In the mid-late game the upgrades are not worth the K.

Cloakers: I've never required the ability to cloak more than 40 ships at once.  My raids are very small in unit # under most circumstances.  However, at a whole 2000 K to cloak 700 more ships, I think they're priced well if you use that tactic heavily.  I just never need to.

Neinzul Enclave Starship: Okay, I'll buy the 10,000 K price tag on the MK IV, merely because it allows you to circumvent, permanently, the loss of a MK IV factory, but that's if I could directly buy it bypassing the lower levels.  3000 K and 5000 K for the II/III seems silly to me, particularly with how fragile they are.  These need an end to end overhaul in general though, from my perspective, particularly due to the necessity of Engineer IIIs to make them useful in any type of scenario where you're not on your own controlled worlds, in which case you could simply fire up a Space Dock.

Riot Starships: I think everyone knows of my love affair with the MK II Riot Tazer.  At 4000 K I feel that bonus is priced about right.  It's expensive, and it should be for the defensive power it gains you.  However, at 5000 K I don't see how the Riot III is priced.  I don't, however, use these utility ships in standard techniques.  I'm not an 'engine killing' kind of guy.  For the price, I don't want to kill an engine, I want to kill a ship.  At 5000 K this Engine Killer is worth 2 MK II upgrades.  It needs more utility.  Tachyon sweepers like the decloaker, A tazer AND a tractor, so it feels like you've actually upgraded from MK I, something...  I dunno.

Scouts: Just got an overhaul, no opinion until further heavy usage.  Right now Scout Is are doing what I want/need, with the inclusion of the Brave Scout SS addition.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2012, 05:47:50 pm »
First, quick question: Are AI Plasma Siege shooting at a player Force Field protecting a ZPG supposed to damage it?  I know it was considered a problem that player Plasma Siege would damage AI ZPGs because we want to capture them, and AOE damage normal doesn't hit capturables likes the ARS.

On Bomber Starships, besides a name tweak, I'd really like to see them toughened up.  They have 25.6% more cap health than Bombers, but they have half the armor which actually negates a lot of that health for practical purposes.  Meanwhile they deal 40.5% less damage than Bombers (against stuff Bombers will actually be attacking).  I'd consider the following:

5.66 million health (+50% over Bombers) with 1800 armor (+50% over Bombers)
330k damage with a 4 second reload time (+17.9% DPS, 70% of Bomber DPS against Bomber-ideal targets)

I think the health and armor are the most important because of how close the Bomber Starship needs to be to function.  The damage increase is warranted, but less important, on the grounds that it just can't hit fleet ships at all which is actually a pretty heavy (and annoying) limitation. Plus it gets their DPS to a nice round -30% of a triangle ship.  I think that makes a great baseline for Starships, and is roughly around what I seem to recall Starships were targeted towards anyway.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2012, 05:54:12 pm »
+1 to Heartearer's proposed new bomber starship stats. If those stats won't work exactly, something on a similar order of magnitude will do.

Also, why is it that the bomber starships have a cap of 4 but the plasma sieges have a cap of 5?


I've noticed that plasma sieges can still hit capturables when those capturables are in human hands. Very annoying. Is there a mantis issue about that yet?

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2012, 05:59:06 pm »
First, quick question: Are AI Plasma Siege shooting at a player Force Field protecting a ZPG supposed to damage it?  I know it was considered a problem that player Plasma Siege would damage AI ZPGs because we want to capture them, and AOE damage normal doesn't hit capturables likes the ARS.
It's a problem for human ships to do it because it takes the decision of whether to damage the capturable out of your hands, but AI ships are specifically excluded from that condition because it assumes the AI wants to kill human-held capturables.

On the bomber starships, some durability buffs would be ok, sure, but it wouldn't be appropriate for a no-vs-hull-bonuses fleet ship type to do 70% of the max-dps of another fleet ship type that has 6x bonuses, let alone a starship doing that.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2012, 06:13:29 pm »
The Plamsa Siege vs player ZPG has cost my friend 4 ZPGs so far.  No matter what system he puts it in, someone a freaking Plasma Siege sneaks in there and pot shots it.  This is just his second game, so his defense isn't as tight as it could be and we are playing a 2-player game this time at 7/6 instead of a one-player helper game at 6/5.  Oh, and Golems Hard is on.  If you could have seen his face when the Artillery Golem came in the second Exo.  He saw it, read its states and said, "We're going to lose that system, aren't we?"

For reference, the Bomber Starship currently does 60% of the DPS of Bombers against targets Bombers get x6 against.  So 70% isn't that massive an increase.  And ask yourself this question, what non-fleet ship will a Bomber Starship be attacking that a Bomber fleet ship WON'T get a x6 against?  I think comparing Bomber Starship DPS to Bomber fleet ship is the only way to balance their DPS (and I'd be totally fine with no change in their DPS although a 4 second reload would be a little nicer).  Better K-costs on Mark II and III so I actually consider them would be the best "damage" boost I could ask for though.


Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2012, 06:21:44 pm »
The Plamsa Siege vs player ZPG has cost my friend 4 ZPGs so far.
I'll make sure they get a raise ;)

How many die to raid starships, which can shoot straight through ffs?

Quote
If you could have seen his face when the Artillery Golem came in the second Exo.  He saw it, read its states and said, "We're going to lose that system, aren't we?"
Sounds like he is growing in wisdom ;)

Quote
For reference, the Bomber Starship currently does 60% of the DPS of Bombers against targets Bombers get x6 against.
Hmm, that is a good point.  As is the bit about what it would be hitting that the bomber doesn't have a bonus against.

Anyway, my plan is to bring most starship knowledge costs in line with fleet ships, and keep them roughly in the same ballpark of cap-stats (except much easier to keep alive and much higher in m+c construction cost).  The alternative is to keep their knowledge costs as-is and make them into mini-superweapons, but I don't want to do that as that would probably bring in another age of gangs of starships conquering the universe with no support from fleet ships.

And things like the enclave starships, the Riot III, and the Zenith/Spire need more specific attention.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2012, 06:34:19 pm »
Anyway, my plan is to bring most starship knowledge costs in line with fleet ships, and keep them roughly in the same ballpark of cap-stats (except much easier to keep alive and much higher in m+c construction cost).  The alternative is to keep their knowledge costs as-is and make them into mini-superweapons, but I don't want to do that as that would probably bring in another age of gangs of starships conquering the universe with no support from fleet ships.

And things like the enclave starships, the Riot III, and the Zenith/Spire need more specific attention.
Sounds good, and I completely agree.  I don't want starships to be super weapons.  I want them to support my fleet, not replace or marginalize it.

And for reference, it has been exclusively Plasma Siege that have killed all four ZPGs.  Only takes them 4 shots at Mark I.  At Mark II they kill in just two shots which is 8 seconds from 100% to dead.  And with their range, it is just brutal.  When the Exo had a Mark IV...yeah.  That wasn't pretty.

Offline Eternaly_Lost

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2012, 06:45:41 pm »

Anyway, my plan is to bring most starship knowledge costs in line with fleet ships, and keep them roughly in the same ballpark of cap-stats (except much easier to keep alive and much higher in m+c construction cost).  The alternative is to keep their knowledge costs as-is and make them into mini-superweapons, but I don't want to do that as that would probably bring in another age of gangs of starships conquering the universe with no support from fleet ships.

And things like the enclave starships, the Riot III, and the Zenith/Spire need more specific attention.


And what is the issue with keeping their K costs as is and make them into mini-superweapons? They would make a nice middle ground where you can basicly have a few superweapons (fallen spire) A small-medium amount of mini-super weapons (Starships) or a lot of weak ships (fleet ships). You don't need to make only 1 or 2 ways to play the game. The more options players have the better, and it also would allow you to cycle between playing styles.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Liking the new plasma starship
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 06:48:41 pm »
And what is the issue with keeping their K costs as is and make them into mini-superweapons? They would make a nice middle ground where you can basicly have a few superweapons (fallen spire) A small-medium amount of mini-super weapons (Starships) or a lot of weak ships (fleet ships). You don't need to make only 1 or 2 ways to play the game. The more options players have the better, and it also would allow you to cycle between playing styles.
The problem is that starships are in every game (that doesn't have starships off, and that leaves some pretty gaping utility holes) and making them much more powerful will cause them to overshadow the fleet ships again.  The game has already gone through a phase like that and it wasn't pretty.  If you want superweapons there are already 3 kinds: Golems, Spirecraft (which are closer to mini-superweapons), and Fallen Spire.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!