Liking the new plasma starship

[Hearteater]

You know why I think starships often feel a lot weaker than fleet ships, even though cap health shows starships shouldn't be that fragile?  I think fleet ship caps get a lot of phantom health from overkill that a starship takes.  Something doing 200k damage is going to one-shot a lot of fleet ships.  But against a Light Starship it takes 19 hits.  So comparatively, I could lose 19 Mark I Fighters or one Light Starship.  Now before you start wondering what fleet ship does 200k damage, don't forget hull multipliers.  I think if the Plasma is feeling durable enough, that's probably a good health target to balance other starships around.  Trying to balance them off fleet ship cap health is somewhat like balances apples and oranges .

[keith.lamothe]

Trying to balance them off fleet ship cap health is somewhat like balances apples and oranges .

The min and max cap-health values for starship balancing is 1.5x the min and max for fleetships, and the plasma siege starship's cap-health is in the middling-high area of the starship range.

But yea, the overkill thing does have an impact.  It's the other side of the "these are much easier for preventing casualties" coin.

[jordot42]

Anyway, not seeing a need to change the sieges.  Glad some folks like them

Yay!

[zoutzakje]

yeah I like em too. Their engine damge has been a huge help to me (sometimes also an annoyance when the AI uses them, but still more useful to me) and their damage is good. Not overpowered, just good. Plus I like the little lightning thingie whenever I hit a target

[atomjack]

Just to confuse the issue more, may I just point out that I *like* the alien starships and unlock them early on every game. Damage boosts, good DPS, survivability, and immunity to gravity effects - what's not to like?

[zoutzakje]

yeah in the past I used to unlock the zenith starship right away and the spire starship as soon as possible. Until I realized I could do much better things with that massive amount of knowledge. I rather have a full cap of mk III bombers and my bonus ship (or fighters) than a few starships (which are powerful, but just won't do the trick without proper fleet support).

[TechSY730]

yeah in the past I used to unlock the zenith starship right away and the spire starship as soon as possible. Until I realized I could do much better things with that massive amount of knowledge. I rather have a full cap of mk III bombers and my bonus ship (or fighters) than a few starships (which are powerful, but just won't do the trick without proper fleet support).

One of the reasons I still feel like 5k knowledge is too much for Mk. II starships (or since the fleet starship line is sort of like one tier down, Mk. III for them), as holding of a little more for 6k for the Mk. III stuff is almost always a better use of your knowledge.
I know I have harped on this quite a bit, but can we either get a knowledge cost reduction for the higher Mk starships or another buff to them to make them work 5k?

[PokerChen]

yeah in the past I used to unlock the zenith starship right away and the spire starship as soon as possible. Until I realized I could do much better things with that massive amount of knowledge. I rather have a full cap of mk III bombers and my bonus ship (or fighters) than a few starships (which are powerful, but just won't do the trick without proper fleet support).

One of the reasons I still feel like 5k knowledge is too much for Mk. II starships (or since the fleet starship line is sort of like one tier down, Mk. III for them), as holding of a little more for 6k for the Mk. III stuff is almost always a better use of your knowledge.
I know I have harped on this quite a bit, but can we either get a knowledge cost reduction for the higher Mk starships or another buff to them to make them work 5k?

The default scaling mechanics from mark I to II to mark III, IMO, makes it difficult to justify spending 5K and 7K on some starship when you can spend 2.5K and 6K on a fleet ship and get a bonus Mark IV.

Perhaps with the creeping biggerism of fleetships, it no longer feels as valuable to unlock a starship. That kind of expansion-biggerism seems to be the underlying problem - and something we're only starting to address now.
I would have spared some K for bomber starships and spire starships in default, or the plasma sieges, if I didn't have these new ship-types to play with. e.g. A Z-Bombard III+IV, or Spire-X III+IVs are generally more valuable to me than Bomber Starship-IIIs.

[keith.lamothe]

Bonus fleet ship types can be more valuable than starships because you don't have them (necessarily) every game.  If the starships were too competitive with bonus types then why upgrade the bonus types?

That said, they typically fill different roles than the fleet ships and fit different playstyles.  And some folks just really like starships.

[zoutzakje]

I like starships too, I just can't seem to justify the high unlock cost. Mk I starships always get build, usually all of them that have attack power. It's what I build when I have an excessive amount of resources to go with. Raid starships might get mk II if they're lucky (but almost never mk III). Riots might get mk II and maybe even mk III, since I have recently discovered what they're capable of (bye bye engines) and I can see myself upgrading plasma siege starships as well occasonally, now that they feel good. Flagships get unlocked as well. I think 2k knowledge is a decent price. but 5k for the zenith and another whopping 7k for the spire just seems to much. I'd be ok with 7k for the both of them (3k for zenith, 4k for spire), then they would defenitely see some action in my games.
But right now, I usually got better things to do with my knowledge. I rather upgrade my triangle ships to mk III, even if there is no mk IV factory around.
It's like the heavy beam cannon turrets. They are much more powerful than regular turrets, but you don't see them costing 5k knowledge for mk III and 7k knowledge for mk IV either. Very few people would unlock them if they did (not counting the people who see them as a must for Spire Fleet module upgrades). But their current cost at least makes me consider them when I'm in a tough spot and got some spare knowledge.

[Hearteater]

Yeah, but 2.5k vs 5k for Mark II is pretty insane.  Can't it at least be 3k?  If Starships are balanced against fleet ships at the cap level, we are paying twice the K for the same effectiveness.  Aren't bonus ships supposed to be on about 30% better?  I'd even say Mark III Starships could be 6k since you don't get the free Mark IVs.

[PokerChen]

Keith, while that is true for many of the newer bonus ships, I feel that this isn't so with the default bonus ship-types. There is one aspect in particular that stands out: in no original fleet ship-type do we find the ability to simply *prevent* a portion of the enemy from contributing at all to the battle. The mechanics revolved around what was immune to what, so e.g. bulletproofs are generally useful, but enemies with bullets can still shoot at something else.

Then with each expansion we introduced new mechanics.
 It wasn't noticeable until now that their targeting has been improved - Paralyzers can now shut down entire defense forces around a guard post, one after another, and drastically reduce attrition rates for everyone else.
 Bombards conducted matter-antimatter annihilation at extreme range, something that wasn't even possible with full caps of snipers.
Autobombs fulfill an innate desire for push a red button that says 'Launch ALL Missiles' (something not seen since the UCS recruitment ad in the Moon Project ). Is that just me?
 Quad-cap Nanoswarms can shut down entire *planets* (That Neinzul fleet game changed my perception about the expansion. Conquest was a tsunami engulfing a screen of flashing disabled ships, stopped only by AI fortresses. I'm starting to think we should make Missile Frigates immune to them but not paralyzers).
 Spire Maws, Spire Grav Drainers, Blade Spawners... each cool thing that we do add is good, but at the same time they begin to take away from the Starships which saw little change.

 What if... we found Beam Starships as an unlockable ship-type? A triple-cap of Bomber Starships can still wreck, but... chances are I can find or hack a shiptype that is more desirable. The new plasma sieges start to appeal, with its mass engine damage, actually, since it can't one-hit KO a bunch of ships.

I don't know exactly how to fix the expansion effect - or if it can be fixed, but I'm just trying to tell you the symptoms. If there was a different ARS route that gave you the option to unlock new starship lines instead (even revamped Zenith and Spires will do), military carriers, tachyon-equipped destroyers, or translocation battleships, then going for a more starship-based fleet would suddenly become cool. These are things not found on fleet-ships, and perhaps they can complement the existing starships in a way that a fleet-ship unlock cannot (a starship grav link that finally brings those plasma sieges up to combat speed, say).

 That will certainly be a major release.

[Nodor]

I want Warbird Starships.

[TechSY730]

Keith, while that is true for many of the newer bonus ships, I feel that this isn't so with the default bonus ship-types. There is one aspect in particular that stands out: in no original fleet ship-type do we find the ability to simply *prevent* a portion of the enemy from contributing at all to the battle. The mechanics revolved around what was immune to what, so e.g. bulletproofs are generally useful, but enemies with bullets can still shoot at something else.

Then with each expansion we introduced new mechanics.
 It wasn't noticeable until now that their targeting has been improved - Paralyzers can now shut down entire defense forces around a guard post, one after another, and drastically reduce attrition rates for everyone else.
 Bombards conducted matter-antimatter annihilation at extreme range, something that wasn't even possible with full caps of snipers.
Autobombs fulfill an innate desire for push a red button that says 'Launch ALL Missiles' (something not seen since the UCS recruitment ad in the Moon Project ). Is that just me?
 Quad-cap Nanoswarms can shut down entire *planets* (That Neinzul fleet game changed my perception about the expansion. Conquest was a tsunami engulfing a screen of flashing disabled ships, stopped only by AI fortresses. I'm starting to think we should make Missile Frigates immune to them but not paralyzers).
 Spire Maws, Spire Grav Drainers, Blade Spawners... each cool thing that we do add is good, but at the same time they begin to take away from the Starships which saw little change.

 What if... we found Beam Starships as an unlockable ship-type? A triple-cap of Bomber Starships can still wreck, but... chances are I can find or hack a shiptype that is more desirable. The new plasma sieges start to appeal, with its mass engine damage, actually, since it can't one-hit KO a bunch of ships.

I don't know exactly how to fix the expansion effect - or if it can be fixed, but I'm just trying to tell you the symptoms. If there was a different ARS route that gave you the option to unlock new starship lines instead (even revamped Zenith and Spires will do), military carriers, tachyon-equipped destroyers, or translocation battleships, then going for a more starship-based fleet would suddenly become cool. These are things not found on fleet-ships, and perhaps they can complement the existing starships in a way that a fleet-ship unlock cannot (a starship grav link that finally brings those plasma sieges up to combat speed, say).

 That will certainly be a major release.

Although some grand re-imagining of starships as another "bonus ship type" would be cool, I'm not sure if it is worth the effort.
(Actually, there is probably a way to create some sort of Mk. IV starship factory without touching the rest of the system, short of removing Mk. IV bomber starship fabricators)

I think the current starship system works fine. Just the knowledge costs need some adjusting and a few starships could still use a little more love.

And I don't know about you, but I still love the base bonus ship types. One of my favorite picks is laser gattlings. Just about as basic as you can get, but still effective at its role given its cost and cap.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Keith, while that is true for many of the newer bonus ships, I feel that this isn't so with the default bonus ship-types. There is one aspect in particular that stands out: in no original fleet ship-type do we find the ability to simply *prevent* a portion of the enemy from contributing at all to the battle. The mechanics revolved around what was immune to what, so e.g. bulletproofs are generally useful, but enemies with bullets can still shoot at something else.

Then with each expansion we introduced new mechanics.
 It wasn't noticeable until now that their targeting has been improved - Paralyzers can now shut down entire defense forces around a guard post, one after another, and drastically reduce attrition rates for everyone else.
 Bombards conducted matter-antimatter annihilation at extreme range, something that wasn't even possible with full caps of snipers.
Autobombs fulfill an innate desire for push a red button that says 'Launch ALL Missiles' (something not seen since the UCS recruitment ad in the Moon Project ). Is that just me?
 Quad-cap Nanoswarms can shut down entire *planets* (That Neinzul fleet game changed my perception about the expansion. Conquest was a tsunami engulfing a screen of flashing disabled ships, stopped only by AI fortresses. I'm starting to think we should make Missile Frigates immune to them but not paralyzers).
 Spire Maws, Spire Grav Drainers, Blade Spawners... each cool thing that we do add is good, but at the same time they begin to take away from the Starships which saw little change.

 What if... we found Beam Starships as an unlockable ship-type? A triple-cap of Bomber Starships can still wreck, but... chances are I can find or hack a shiptype that is more desirable. The new plasma sieges start to appeal, with its mass engine damage, actually, since it can't one-hit KO a bunch of ships.

I don't know exactly how to fix the expansion effect - or if it can be fixed, but I'm just trying to tell you the symptoms. If there was a different ARS route that gave you the option to unlock new starship lines instead (even revamped Zenith and Spires will do), military carriers, tachyon-equipped destroyers, or translocation battleships, then going for a more starship-based fleet would suddenly become cool. These are things not found on fleet-ships, and perhaps they can complement the existing starships in a way that a fleet-ship unlock cannot (a starship grav link that finally brings those plasma sieges up to combat speed, say).

 That will certainly be a major release.

You are right that it would be a major release, but it certainly would be one that I would enjoy. I always like the Spire Fleet over the normal fleet because the ships don't die that quickly, that and I like conquering every planet in the galaxy, something that is both reasonable and almost needed with the Spire Campaign. However, a middle tier of ships, namely several Starships lines would make the game have a third way to play, not enough to take everything, but enough to take a notable amount of land, rather then having to neuter most planets and only take a certain few of them. I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if normal play is about 10 planets out of 80 or so, and Spire Fleet is closer 60 out of 80, then maybe a Starship game could aim for a middle ground of around 40 or so planets out of 80. You need more planets as they cost a lot of K and resources to build, but you get a lot of firepower that can still be taken down by high enough AI progress, unlike the Spire Fleet once it gets going. (2000 AIP? I just sent my 10 city 4 homeworld spire fleet at those puny waves. The real issue there is the Exo Waves, not the normal waves)