Lightning Torpedo Frigates Small Starships or Extremely Large Fleetships

[Chthon]

Seriously, 1.2 million hp, 33k resources for a Mk I and they are considered fleetships?  That's a light starship there.  Anyone else agree?

[Orelius]

Not really.  When you take a look at the other starships, you'll notice that most of them have at least 10 million hp for a mark I and have a cap of 2.  If you want to make the LTF a starship, you might as well take a look at the spire stealth battleship, blade spawner, or any other low-cap fleet ship.

[Kahuna]

Mark I Spire Maw has 2.100.000 health
Mark I Spire Stealth Battleship has 1.920.000health
Mark I Spire Tractor Platform has 1.600.000 health

EDIT: The lowest health combat Starship (except Riot) has 10 million health.

[Chthon]

Mark I Spire Maw has 2.100.000 health
Mark I Spire Stealth Battleship has 1.920.000health
Mark I Spire Tractor Platform has 1.600.000 health

EDIT: The lowest health combat Starship (except Riot) has 10 million health.

Mark 1 Spire Maw: Can easily hold inside of it 50 fleet ships, making it more than 50 times greater in size than any 'edible' fleet ship.  It also only has a cap of 5.

As far as the low health combat Starships are concerned, the Raid only has 2 million health.  Of course, like the Riot (and Maw, Torpedo Frigate, Stealth Battleship, and Tractor Platform) it is a special function combat ship.

Finally as far as resource cost for each of these is concerned (and build time)
Raid: 82k resources 11:07 Cap 3
Riot: 80k resources 06:57 Cap 4
Maw: 25k resources 03:29 Cap 5
Stealth Battleship: 22k resources 02:14 Cap 5
Tractor Platforms: 16k resources 01:40 Cap 5
LTF: 33k resources 00:31 Cap 8

Triangle ship comparison for baseline:
Fighter: 165k hp .4k resources 00:02 Cap 96
Bomber:  156k hp 1.6k resources 00:12 Cap 96
Missile Frigate:  156k hp 1.2k resources 00:09 Cap 96

Fleet ships have a few properties in my mind:
Expendable/easy to replace
Builds quickly
Cheap
Lots of targets to split enemy fire/wastes enemy's higher power shots

Capital ships have a  few properties in my mind:
Expensive/you will want to protect these
Takes time to build, not first on your list to start
Suffers more from very high damage enemy firepower

Tractor Platforms are 10x the cost of the most expensive triangle ship.  Lighting Torpedo Frigates are 20x that cost.  On the reverse they are 1/6 and 1/3 the cost of the cheapest starship.
Lightning Torpedo Warheads take roughly 3x the time to build than the slowest triangle, however the other 3 are much longer and more in line with starships.
A single powerful shot that can one hit any of these ships will take out 1/5 of the Spire's firepower, 1/8th of the LTP's, 1/4 of the Riot's, 1/3 of the Raid's, or 1/96 of the triangle ship's.

I understand why the spire "fleet ships" are so large.  They don't do anything small, but from a human standpoint they aren't fleetships, they are inline as small starships.

Autobuilding:  These ships actually can bankrupt an early game economy on their own.  This means you either manually add and remove them as necessary from your docks, build more docks just for them with control group limits, or just deal with the bankruptcy when you lose them.  It literally can interrupt your economy unlike almost any other fleet ship if put on autobuild.  Starships do the same things, but they have a separate dock that can be toggled and is already required.

I'm not asking for a change in balance or nerf, just change the classification and place you build them at.  Perhaps add a new tab for small/special purpose starships on the starship constructor.  As for the Spire "fleetships" just imagine that despite them being used as such by the Spire, your own fleetship docks aren't prepared to construct such a large vessel.

edit:  Other ships forgotten:
Spire Blade Spawner:  16k resources, 1,050,000  hp, 01:07, Cap 5
Spire Railcluster:  18k resources, 3,350,000 hp, 01:24, Cap 5 (Actually has more hp than Riot Starships)
Tackle Drone Launcher: 33k resources, 1,240,000 hp, 03:04, Cap 8
Zenith Medic Frigate: 8.6k resources, 1,110,000 hp, 05:12, Cap 8 (These last two don't fit all of my criteria, I list them because they fit some)
Zenith Reprocessors: 4k resources, 1,860,000 hp, 00:17, Cap 8

At what point do we draw the line and say X is a starship and Y is a fleet ship?  So far the only line I can see is "Cap <5" however this feels very arbitrary to me, and I feel it excludes some ships which should be starships.

[Kahuna]

I don't count Raid Starships as combat Starships.

EDIT: I forgot to edit my post to say how much health Riots have^^

[Kahuna]

Fleet ships have a few properties in my mind:
Expendable/easy to replace
[...]
Cheap

Space Tanks and some other Fleet Ships are expensive and will kill your economy if you keep losing them. So not all of them are expendable.

[Chthon]

Fleet ships have a few properties in my mind:
Expendable/easy to replace
[...]
Cheap

Space Tanks and some other Fleet Ships are expensive and will kill your economy if you keep losing them. So not all of them are expendable.

A space tank is no more expensive than a bomber.  In fact it's less expensive than a bomber at 1.4k resources and 00:10 with a 96 cap.  I would rather lose a space tank than a bomber honestly.

edit: Now a whole cap?  That's a different story.  However that's 96 of the buggers, and surely some of them can survive the retreat.  Given the choice though I'd rather lose a few more space tanks than a single one of the spire/LTF "fleet" ships to cover a retreat.

edit 2:  Added more ships to the previous post that fit or almost fit my idea of a starship.  Why do we feel so afraid to classify something as a starship?

[Orelius]

It's not that we're afraid of classifying something as a starship, it's that there simply is not much reason to do so.  If we're reclassifying something for no tangible benefit than that it bothers you, why do it?  You're the first person I've seen that really has a problem with the way it works now.

[Chthon]

It's not that we're afraid of classifying something as a starship, it's that there simply is not much reason to do so.  If we're reclassifying something for no tangible benefit than that it bothers you, why do it?  You're the first person I've seen that really has a problem with the way it works now.

One tangible benefit is that if you teach new players that Fleet ships require large numbers to make a difference, while Starships can do a job with just a few, it might be good to properly delineate which ones are what for ease of learning.

Plus there are currently what?  3 bonus starships with 2 experimental versions?  I think they need some love too :/  Why not flesh out their numbers a bit with fleet ships that are currently very starship like?  It'd make the advanced starship constructor more advantageous too if you have a few of those types.

[Histidine]

It occurs to me that if your present complaints concern the cost of LTFs, they're only going to get worse once OMDs get to shoot them. 

Looking at those numbers, bringing LTF buildtimes in line with the other mini-starships might address the sucking-econ-dry concern?

Thinking about it, though, it seems to me that the distinction between true and pseudo-starships is a holdover from they were more clearly separate categories (there was no Starship Constructor IV or starship Mk. V fabricators, for one), so there's probably no harm in dissolving it. Plus, then we get a clear boundary between "dies to Ion Cannon" and "does not die to Ion Cannon."

[Kahuna]

A space tank is no more expensive than a bomber.  In fact it's less expensive than a bomber at 1.4k resources and 00:10 with a 96 cap.

I said losing a lot of Space Tanks kills the economy.. so obviously losing a lot of Bombers kills the economy too.

[Chthon]

A space tank is no more expensive than a bomber.  In fact it's less expensive than a bomber at 1.4k resources and 00:10 with a 96 cap.

I said losing a lot of Space Tanks kills the economy.. so obviously losing a lot of Bombers kills the economy too.

Sure you said that it'd kill it if you keep losing them.  You'd kill your economy if you keep losing anything.  My point is just how many you'd have to lose to kill your economy.  It'd take far less from LTPs or the others than a bomber or tank.

[Bognor]

At what point do we draw the line and say X is a starship and Y is a fleet ship?  So far the only line I can see is "Cap <5" however this feels very arbitrary to me, and I feel it excludes some ships which should be starships.

I agree the line between them is fuzzy, but true starships tend to have a few more immunities than the low cap pseudo-starships, like immunities to tractor beams, EMPs, and nukes.  Also, they can't be swallowed by Spire Maws.

[Chthon]

At what point do we draw the line and say X is a starship and Y is a fleet ship?  So far the only line I can see is "Cap <5" however this feels very arbitrary to me, and I feel it excludes some ships which should be starships.

I agree the line between them is fuzzy, but true starships tend to have a few more immunities than the low cap pseudo-starships, like immunities to tractor beams, EMPs, and nukes.  Also, they can't be swallowed by Spire Maws.

I wasn't aware that the maw could swallow pretty much any fleet ship.  That makes it at least 50 times bigger than any other fleet ship in the game (physically) O.o