Late game unbalance - Blade spawners

[fiorenzospa]

Okok I know that this isn't the traditional way to play this game but after winning enough easily some games at 7.5 diff I started to play with the aim to conquer all the galaxy.
I chose defendable map (concentric, 60 planets) and I went on pretty well till to the point where AI, other then use annoying tractor beams platforms and Maws ( really hard to counter... really), start to use Blade spawner. After 19 hours of game 600 AI progress, half of the map conquered, full ship set Mark I II III IV and some V, the game became unplayable.
I found planet with almost 80 Blade spawner... I had a tactic to beat this but the crazy problem is when AI is using them on attak. I have just to face 10.000 ships wave with HUGE amount of Blade spawners inside carrier. Frustrating... I would like to post my save in order to receive some tips or to understand if, as I think, there is the needing of some rebalancing patch. Please if you overcome this attak in a reasonable way tell me how you did!!!
I also have the sensation that this GREAT game, on very long match (+ 20 hours) it's becoming everytime unbalanced, nevertheless the kind of ships the AI is using. It's a shame because I have big fun with long games...
Thanks for help

[Zhaine]

Well as I think as others will say, the game is designed to punish you and become a bit unbalanced if you try to conquer everything. It's certainly something you can attempt and have fun, but not something many will succeed at and the game is deliberately not balanced for this style of play. It's one of the many ways the game is designed in reaction to the usual RTS tank-rush-the-whole-map style of play.

However from what I've read and played I think you may be right that there's an issue still with blade spawners being quite a punishing ship for the AI to unlock. . .

[TechSY730]

You're right about the blade spawners being brokenly good right now when in AI hands. There is supposed to be a cap on the number of blade spawners the AI gets per guard post and per planet. (1 per guard post IIRC, not sure how many they can get per planet. There are other ships that have such caps for the AI too) However, these caps are per Mk. level, meaning they can have up to 1 Mk. I, 1 Mk. II, 1 MK. III,... per guard post. However, this only lets them get 5 per guard post. Unless the AI has 16 guard posts, 80 blade spawners like you reported is not intended.

In other words, you are being pwned by a glitch; the AI is ignoring the caps on these things like it should.
What version are you playing?
5.000 (the "stable" one) has a known glitch with these caps (that one was fixed in the beta version 5.001). There might be one in the latest beta version as well, if the thread at http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,8488.0.html is anything to go by.

[fiorenzospa]

Thanks for the replies!!
Tecsy, I alway play the last beta version. Just load my replay and watch what is coming out from those carries (they are appearing just after 1 minute) ... unbelievable...
bytheway I managed to overcome this attak incredibly... but this will be the last one if those spawners won't be nerfed in the next patches... 

[TechSY730]

Thanks for the replies!!
Tecsy, I alway play the last beta version. Just load my replay and watch what is coming out from those carries (they are appearing just after 1 minute) ... unbelievable...
bytheway I managed to overcome this attak incredibly... but this will be the last one if those spawners won't be nerfed in the next patches...  

I sure hope he "nerfs" them by getting them to obey the limits they were supposed to be following in the first place. Could they use further nerfs on top of that, maybe (But would having 1 per guard post really be all that scary?), but I would like to see them acting correctly before I make judgments on their balance.

But yea, until this cap thing is fixed, you may want to restart games where the AI gets a low cap fleet ship, or if in your current game they get one, hold off on it until it is fixed.
It's the sad nature of balance breaking bugs. Worse, it seems to be in all versions (stable, beta, or otherwise) where spire fleet ships have appeared, so the only sure fire way to avoid this glitch it is to turn the bonus ship type availability to normal (which turns off all the low cap fleet ships, but also a bunch of other fun stuff too), or turn off the Fallen Spire expansion (which turns off the worst offenders, but of course a bunch of other things you payed for). Neither one of them really sounds very appealing.

[Fruden]

 If those things were in an attack wave, that means they were either spawned as a wave or used to be guards that got freed when you blew up posts or command stations. This is a very big thing that isn't immediately obvious, that there are no limits on attack groups, just on defense groups. This rather recent stalking thing the ai does means that ai progress mostly changes the frequency of attacks but not so much the size of attacks, since it just piles up ships until it considers it has enough to make a successful attack.

 The best way i've found to deal with this is to have strong mobile forces that can leave the defending system and convince the ai to attack you, and then reenter the system with those mobile forces to deal with the lured enemy ships. Doing this periodically means the computer opponent won't be able to pile up super extreme numbers of ships, just large numbers of them.

 So you know i'm pretty much in the same situation as you, i'm currently playing a lv9 game i started 3-4 months ago, almost half the 80 system map taken by now. There are still things from the past, like the ai having more fortresses than there are systems, but by now those things are the least of my worries considering all the crap the ai is throwing at me. Thankfully i've got 6 golems with 2 more in sight, some of those guys are really something special but by now... the anti golem waves are really quite nasty since the stalkers wait for them to assault before pouring in too. And sometimes they spawn super anti golem waves that are reload worthy, 7 golems + 250 starships + 5000 ships is simply too much since i haven't been able to consolidate my defenses in just a few chokepoints yet.

[fiorenzospa]

But yea, until this cap thing is fixed, you may want to restart games where the AI gets a low cap fleet ship, or if in your current game they get one, hold off on it until it is fixed.

Yes I think that I will hold off and prey

If those things were in an attack wave, that means they were either spawned as a wave or used to be guards that got freed when you blew up posts or command stations. This is a very big thing that isn't immediately obvious, that there are no limits on attack groups, just on defense groups. This rather recent stalking thing the ai does means that ai progress mostly changes the frequency of attacks but not so much the size of attacks, since it just piles up ships until it considers it has enough to make a successful attack.

 The best way i've found to deal with this is to have strong mobile forces that can leave the defending system and convince the ai to attack you, and then reenter the system with those mobile forces to deal with the lured enemy ships. Doing this periodically means the computer opponent won't be able to pile up super extreme numbers of ships, just large numbers of them.

 So you know i'm pretty much in the same situation as you, i'm currently playing a lv9 game i started 3-4 months ago, almost half the 80 system map taken by now. There are still things from the past, like the ai having more fortresses than there are systems, but by now those things are the least of my worries considering all the crap the ai is throwing at me. Thankfully i've got 6 golems with 2 more in sight, some of those guys are really something special but by now... the anti golem waves are really quite nasty since the stalkers wait for them to assault before pouring in too. And sometimes they spawn super anti golem waves that are reload worthy, 7 golems + 250 starships + 5000 ships is simply too much since i haven't been able to consolidate my defenses in just a few chokepoints yet.

Thanks for the useful tips Fruden! I cannot imagine your situation at level 9 since mine seems already completely broken...
seen that you should be pretty much on defence position as me, I have few questions:
- you think fortress are more effective then turrets in terms of science point invested?
- having  MKII military station is a must, but don't you find that when it is spreding enemies around it has also bad effect of actually spreding your forces around (since they are dividing to follow far enemies) ?
- MKIII military is that good?
Thanks mates

[Philo]

Right now we're beating the game on conquering the galaxy. Although it is with a 6 and 7 AI. And no Spire was on when we started it, only the other two expansions. 68 planets taken, AI Progress at 1700~ . Still pretty smooth sailing so far 

[fiorenzospa]

Eheh lucky you! With Spire on it seems really tricky...

[Fruden]

Thanks for the useful tips Fruden! I cannot imagine your situation at level 9 since mine seems already completely broken...
seen that you should be pretty much on defence position as me, I have few questions:
- you think fortress are more effective then turrets in terms of science point invested?
- having  MKII military station is a must, but don't you find that when it is spreding enemies around it has also bad effect of actually spreding your forces around (since they are dividing to follow far enemies) ?
- MKIII military is that good?
Thanks mates

 Hi again!

 Fortresses have some good and bad. The good is they are amazing at shooting stuff, the bad is their incredibly high energy use, and now in my game where energy isn't a concern anymore, their biggest issue is the very very large amount of firepower stat they have. That firepower stat (you can use some filters on the map to see that stat) is what the computer checks to choose if it attacks, and since fortresses can't leave the system for a few seconds to lure the enemies and are wayyyyy too expensive to scrap and rebuild, making one significantly increases the size of attacks that make it to player worlds. However their range and damage dealing abilities are great, in my game where i've long had all turrets unlocked, i only recently unlocked fortresses mk3 and am quite satisfied with them.

 Still, i would recommend starting with turrets before fortresses, it's a lot easier to build up defenses over time with those. The best damage dealing turret is presently the missile one because of its great range, damage, and useful counters, but as far as utility goes, spider turrets and gravity turrets mk3 are unmatched. Gravity mk3 has longer reach than most small ships, so it adds a few minutes of crawl before those bomber groups start shooting. What's more, they have a firepower stat of 0, so they don't increase the size of attacks. The combo of gravity mk3 + spiders + military station means that a significant portion of the enemy fleets never get to shoot even once, and fortresses, missile turrets and snipers rack up the kills.

 Still, by this point in my game, i have too many fronts to defend and cannot possibly stop attacks from breaking my stuff (the ai only attacks with at least 4000 ships at a time, and i have 8 fronts to defend), so the next strategy is to use golems to kite enemy ships around my planets while my turrets are thinning out the numbers. On average, about 3/4 of enemy ships run after my golems, and simply queuing move orders that circle the planet 2-3 times to a golem gives enough time for my turrets and fortresses to reduce the attack group enough that i can deal with it head on.

 As far as military stations go, the mk1 gives a 20% damage bonus, the mk2 50%, and the mk3 100%. Mk3 also has planet wide decloak. I really like them a bunch, but since the fortresses can't be attack boosted, next time i might stick with logistical stations since halving enemy speeds lets me do double damage to enemies just the same as doubling my attack power, plus it would help the kiting. And let me save on research. I'm not sure the translocate is good enough to make me stick with militaries, i'll have to test some more when i'm done with this game.

 Also, although i now hold 34 planets and have way too many hours played in this game, i only just unlocked my first mk3 small ship a half hour ago. As fun as those are to play with, the effectiveness by research/resources/energy is the lowest of all options, so i only use them when i really need an extra bit of muscle, my fleets get wiped out all the time unless i micro them non stop. All my small ships put together have less than a total of 10 000 kills while i've got a total of almost 400 000 kills. To take care of enemy planets, i only use small specialized groups (usually cloaker starships + raids + mobile repairs + transports, sometimes golems when i can spare them).

 Anyway, way too much text here, sorry about rambling on. Just one last note, my current game doesn't have the latest xp enabled since it was started quite a while before it was released, so if you're using it, that changes things a fair amount. The new stuff has some pretty crazy firepower.

[fiorenzospa]

Great tips Fruden! Thanks these are really original and I liked them especially the way you support your choices.

[Fruden]

 Cool! And thanks for reading!

[chemical_art]

snip

Good stuff, I mean really good stuff here. Thought I'd add more:

Forts have high firepower compared to their research cost, and have wonderful range. However, they are very costly in terms of energy and resources.   Forts make poor border defenses because their firepower messes with border aggression leading to the AI eventually sending an overwhelming mass of non-wave units to take out the fort. They benefit REALLY well from higher MK levels in terms of damage. They also benefit from slowing down the enemy. 

Since forts spread their damage across multiple units automatically, they make poor lone defenders because while they damage a lot, they don't kill necessarily quickly unless they get help.

Forts are good targets for micromanagement if you like everything about them except their energy. If you have 5 up, you don't to keep all 5 powered at once. You can turn some of them off, and rotate which ones are on power depending on where the enemy is.

For my personal use, I use forts as "core defenders", meaning I place them on worlds that border my own homeworld. That's just me though. I like it because:
-They can stay low power for most of the game
-They aren't used every hour, so they don't get damaged and replaced too frequently.
-They stomp any raider groups who'll try to slip in and sneakily attack your homeworld (you gotta remember to turn the forts on though)
-Prevents border aggression problems
-Buys you precious time in case your own fleet is far away so not on hand to help out, allowing your homeworld to make reinforcements itself to defend with.


As for military com stations, here is my take:

Military stations translocate enemies. In my experience, MK I can hold off 25 enemies away forever, MK II can hold off 50, and MK III can hold off 100. In a extended fight (longer then minute) the higher stations will keep flinging units, so you may have a MK III fling over 200 units away during a battle. This effect is devastating against small groups of AI, and an MK II or III station can hold off moderate border agression on its own. Against large waves, the effect is noticeable, but not decisive.

Military stations also boost friendly firepower, including units and turrets (but not forts, golem. Fallen Spire craft are capped at 1.2x damage). If your world has quite a few turrets, or if you routinely use your fleets to help this planet in defense, then military stations are the best in aiding the fighting directly. A 50% increase in damage correlates to the firepower of a unit going 50% higher in tech, so a MK II missile turret unboosted becomes a MK III turret in damage after the boost.

If you like these benefits, get the higher mk verisons. They do everything the MK I does, but with higher range and ability. They also off SIGNIFICANT increases in resources if you don't use econ stations, and I find that resource boost critical as to why I unlock them early on.

[fiorenzospa]

Forts are good targets for micromanagement if you like everything about them except their energy. If you have 5 up, you don't to keep all 5 powered at once. You can turn some of them off, and rotate which ones are on power depending on where the enemy is.

nice one 

[Red Spot]

Best "simple" defence you can get: 100 of each mk1-4 shredders under an FF at the gate with a few mk1 tractor-turrets, with a fort at max distance from the gate, using a mil-CC (mk1 will do).

I can stop 1k mk2 bombers this way eventhough the fort stinks at damaging bombers. If the AI sends in Younglings or anything but fighters the shredders stop it while regenerating themselves, send in fighters and a simple case of pulling back the shredders and letting the fort do its magic will get rid of them.
(I do tend to put a few sniper turrets with them and make them prefer targetting raid-starships.)


@ Chemical_art,
Limit borderworlds to mk1 forts, and use them on 1 or the other bordering planet. Awesome tool to redirect where border-aggression wil hit you.
What I mean is, if you have something like below, where A is the AI planet and H are human-planets, both connected to A, use a fort on 1 of the 2 planets. You stop reinforcing the planet after that when you do not place a fort on the other planet as every bit of aggression, including Hybrids, will hit there.

H-A-H