Knowledge Thoughts

[Hearteater]

Some of the talks of Knowledge raiding make me think of Knowledge gathering in general.  So I thought I'd post some random brainstorming I've been having.  This is on the topic of just regular knowledge gathering, not Knowledge raiding.

There really isn't much difference between the Mark I and Mark II Science Lab.  Or rather, the Mark II is really more of a trap for new players.  Sure it is supposed to be "armored" for work in dangerous systems, but it has 120k health and 1.5k armor.  It will die to 25 Mark II Fighters in a single volley, and Fighters don't even have a beneficial hull multiplier against it.  Just five Mark I Missile Frigates can kill it in a single volley.  It has only 15% more movement speed and although it does gather Knowledge 50% faster, it costs 5k energy compared to 2k and the resource costs are unusually high at x3 metal and crystal for a Mark II unit instead of the normal x2.

So I'm wondering if some kind of change is in order.  I though up a few alternatives:

A) Unit Re-balance: Reduce the energy cost to 3.5k, so you are basically paying just a 500 energy premium for a tougher Science Lab.  Double the health and armor to 240k health and 3k armor.  That's still less than the Mark III.  I think the metal and crystal costs are too high (24k and 2.4k) but the construction time is too low (2 minutes base).  Drop the materials to 16k and 1.6k (double the Mark I materials, which is the same as most Mark II units) but up the time to 5-7.5 minutes.  That Mark III takes 15 minutes, so somewhere between 5 and 7.5 seems a good middle ground.

B) Heavy Unit Re-balance: Same as above except increase the health to 480k health, armor to 6k, and  construction time to 7.5 minutes.  This is actually better health and armor than the Mark III, but the Mark III has a unique special ability so it isn't unreasonable that there is a trade off.

C) Creative Modification: Give it cloaking.  That justifies the energy cost and actually makes is reasonably survivable.  If possible the cloaking should require supply.  I'd probably also tweak the materials cost from 24k metal and 2.4k crystal to 16k metal (x2 compared to Mark I) and 4k crystal (x5 compared to Mark I).

D) System Change: This actually changes how knowledge gathering works a little (Knowledge raiding remains unchanged).  Change the Mark I Science Lab to only be able to gather until a planet reaches 2100 Knowledge.  Change the Mark II Science Lab to gather until a planet reaches 3000 Knowledge, but produce only 1 Knowledge.  So the Mark II is slower at gathering, but can pull the full amount from a planet.  Tweak the other stats between the Mark I and Mark II to the standard x2 values: 80k health, 1k armor, 16k metal, 1.6k crystal, 4k energy.  So a player with a Mark I and Mark II would gather very similarly to what a Mark II does now, but for 1k less energy with a slightly more fragile Mark II Lab, and gathering the last 900 Knowledge would take twice as long because the Mark I would stop working.  ARS would still be able to gather to 3k Knowledge and that feature would make them much more valuable to keep alive.

[zoutzakje]

I agree, mk II science labs seem useless to me as they are now. I've seriously never built one, not even back when I started playing. Option D would piss a lot of players off though (including me). Would make it very annoying and micromanagy to harvest knowledge. Most people just want to send in their science labs after a new planet capture and just forget about them until the next planet.
I don't know what would make them useful though. I wouldn't need a health or armor boost. I always put my science labs under the FF that protects my command station. If I'm being attacked by a force strong enough to get past my turrets and destroy the FF, it certainly won't have much trouble destroying my science labs, regardless of any boost.
Option C might work somehow

[BobTheJanitor]

Definite no vote on anything that requires extra micro on knowledge gathering. I just want to build it and forget it until I send it to the next world. Cloaking seems rather pointless as well, since it's never going to be in any danger except in a situation where I'm about to lose the planet entirely, in which case cloaking isn't going to be very helpful. I always park them right next to the comm station anyway. And as far as requiring supply... you can only use mk2s on a planet you've already captured. A mk2 on a hostile world doesn't do anything, you need a mk3 for knowledge raiding. Now giving that cloaking would be useful, but also ridiculously overpowered. If anything, I would say just cut out the mk2 entirely and give science labs only two marks, one for normal usage and one for knowledge raiding and call it good. Is there ever a time when you really need more science lab cap? If so you're probably taking waaaaay too many worlds at once.

[Orelius]

Science labs don't even have a cap, making the mark II versions even more worthless even more superfluous.

I don't think that giving the science labs cloaking would be broken or anything, it just allows for "safer" knowledge gathering.

[Cyborg]

I object to part D. I don't see how this makes the game more fun or balanced. Differentiating units is meaningless if it doesn't do one of the other; you're just making things different just to make them different choices.

I have no strong feelings about the other choices.

[NickAragua]

I have an alternate proposal:

e) Remove MK II science labs altogether. As other have pointed out, they do the same exact thing as MK I science labs (gather knowledge, die easily) except at a greater cost. Seems redundant.

I would also support option c), cloaking would make the MK II lab distinctive enough that I might actually consider building a few to reduce the time I spend rebuilding the MK I labs that get blown up all the time.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah yes, the mkII, it did get left in the lurch a bit after the last time we shook up the science labs.

For 5.021:
* Science Lab MkII:
** Base Health from 120k => 500k.
** Base Armor Rating from 1500 => 5000.
** Now has cloaking.
** Long story short: they're still more expensive than MkIs, but now they actually are significantly easier to keep alive in dicey situations than MkIs.

If anyone objects, let me know, but I can't think of any fun-compromising exploits that could be pulled with that.  If someone comes up with some clever way to abuse the new stats/cloak, then have fun with that

[Hearteater]

Is there any way to make their cloaking require supply or at least require them to be powered up for cloaking?  Otherwise aren't they a no-cap cloaked unit that once powered down costs 0 energy.  Almost seems like that could be abusable, although I can't think of a reason yet.  Hmm, you can put them in transports to get them past Tachyon Guardians so although you won't get scouting info, you could use transports to drop off cloaked observation units.  I'd hate to say they shouldn't be allowed in Transports, the ARS is already annoying in that way.

An actual cap might be a wise just-in-case measure.

[Orelius]

Is there any way to make their cloaking require supply or at least require them to be powered up for cloaking?  Otherwise aren't they a no-cap cloaked unit that once powered down costs 0 energy.  Almost seems like that could be abusable, although I can't think of a reason yet.  Hmm, you can put them in transports to get them past Tachyon Guardians so although you won't get scouting info, you could use transports to drop off cloaked observation units.  I'd hate to say they shouldn't be allowed in Transports, the ARS is already annoying in that way.

An actual cap might be a wise just-in-case measure.

I don't think having a cap would be absolutely necessary.  The science labs could just be made blind so they don't become cloaked observation units that cost no power to run.

[eRe4s3r]

So i am the only one who thinks giving MK2's cloaking is somehow.. eh, too much boost?

5k energy for a heavily armored cloaked scout with 500k HP that can gather research? ;P

Also, while we talk about 5.021.. AI Super fortress HP and regen speed nerf.. PLEASE

[BobTheJanitor]

Mk2 can't knowledge raid, so again I don't think there's too much to worry about there. You can't just drop it on an AI world and get free knowledge. And they are not scouts, so they can't gather scout intel. I still don't get what difference cloaking will make, but maybe it's just my playstyle. My labs just sit on the doorstep of my comm station, almost always under a force field if it's on any border worlds, and behind my turrets/forts/defensive fleet. If the lab is getting blown up, the comm station is getting blown up as well, so... yeah. But maybe I just don't get it. Maybe there's a strategy that involves building your defenses by first putting a Mk2 science lab right next to the wormhole, and then building turrets and force fields on the other side of the system? 

I can't see any abuses with a cloaked science lab, but if any one can find one, I'm sure this group will. Probably making it blind would be a good idea, just in case.

[Hearteater]

The only time the Mark II would really be need was if you need Knowledge to proceed but couldn't hold onto the one system you could take very long.  It would be sort of like Knowledge Raiding, but you'd throw down a Command Station first, and then bring in a fleet of Mark II Science Labs to grab knowledge while the AI swoops in to destroy your poorly defend new Command Station.  You might need to do this several times, but since your Science Labs won't die, you aren't out all those materials to rebuild them and you also don't need to retreat them so they can gather Knowledge for every second you can keep a Command Station alive.

It is a really niche situation, but it is another trick to pull out of the bag when people get stuck so I think it is worthwhile.

[Orelius]

The only time the Mark II would really be need was if you need Knowledge to proceed but couldn't hold onto the one system you could take very long.  It would be sort of like Knowledge Raiding, but you'd throw down a Command Station first, and then bring in a fleet of Mark II Science Labs to grab knowledge while the AI swoops in to destroy your poorly defend new Command Station.  You might need to do this several times, but since your Science Labs won't die, you aren't out all those materials to rebuild them and you also don't need to retreat them so they can gather Knowledge for every second you can keep a Command Station alive.

It is a really niche situation, but it is another trick to pull out of the bag when people get stuck so I think it is worthwhile.

I'd agree that even with the new additions, Mark II science labs would still not be very useful.  Buffs are still welcome, though.  However, I guess it's possible to use them to gain knowledge on a world that has lots of AI ships that you don't want to deal with yet, I suppose.

While we're on the topic of knowledge, would it be a good idea to have an optional setting that gives each planet a slightly different knowledge value?  Instead of every world having 3000 knowledge, certain worlds would have slightly higher or lower amounts.

For example, world A could give 3500 knowledge, while world B could give 2500.  It would provide more of an incentive to capture or knowledge raid certain planets.

[zoutzakje]

The only time the Mark II would really be need was if you need Knowledge to proceed but couldn't hold onto the one system you could take very long.  It would be sort of like Knowledge Raiding, but you'd throw down a Command Station first, and then bring in a fleet of Mark II Science Labs to grab knowledge while the AI swoops in to destroy your poorly defend new Command Station.  You might need to do this several times, but since your Science Labs won't die, you aren't out all those materials to rebuild them and you also don't need to retreat them so they can gather Knowledge for every second you can keep a Command Station alive.

It is a really niche situation, but it is another trick to pull out of the bag when people get stuck so I think it is worthwhile.

I'd agree that even with the new additions, Mark II science labs would still not be very useful.  Buffs are still welcome, though.  However, I guess it's possible to use them to gain knowledge on a world that has lots of AI ships that you don't want to deal with yet, I suppose.

While we're on the topic of knowledge, would it be a good idea to have an optional setting that gives each planet a slightly different knowledge value?  Instead of every world having 3000 knowledge, certain worlds would have slightly higher or lower amounts.

For example, world A could give 3500 knowledge, while world B could give 2500.  It would provide more of an incentive to capture or knowledge raid certain planets.

already beat ya to it:

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=4918

[keith.lamothe]

So i am the only one who thinks giving MK2's cloaking is somehow.. eh, too much boost?

5k energy for a heavily armored cloaked scout with 500k HP that can gather research? ;P

It's not a scout, unless I'm just missing that line of code as I scan through the unit definition.  It does give you planet vision, but not scout intel.  If it were scout intel, it would need a cap, or more likely a removal of the scout intel because non-mil scouting is for... well, scouts

And I don't think it needs to be blind, it would only need that if I made it perma-cloaked.  Normal cloaking can't move around with impunity unless you take out all the AI tachyon stuff along the way, and if you do that you've legitimately earned the ability to move cloaked stuff around in that area (unless the AI restores coverage somehow, of course).

Anyway, as others have said: this doesn't actually make the mkII all that more useful.  Unless you have a relatively unusual situation you're going to want to stick with mkIs.  But if for some reason you need science ships operating in proximity to a firefight, the mkIIs will now actually have the survivability they claim to have.

Also, while we talk about 5.021.. AI Super fortress HP and regen speed nerf.. PLEASE

Oh, right, thanks.  Just put in:

* AI Superfortress:
** Base health from 750 million => 450 million.  This brings it from 5*human-version to 3*human-version, putting it in line with the other fortresses.
** Health regen halved.

* AI Fortress I/II/III: health regen halved.