Author Topic: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?  (Read 23376 times)

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 06:38:38 pm »
While I'm at it, another loony idea for knowledge raiding: how about having super-terminal use also drive up the counter previously prescribed for tracking "how much knowledge has been raided"?  And have that counter feed into the strength of the super-terminal's spawns.

The super-terminal and/or k-raiding might need to be made somewhat easier to compensate, as the point isn't to nerf the player, but it would turn the two things into a trade-off (though super-terminal is a TZR feature and k-raiding is base-game, but what we've talked about doing for k-raiding should stand alright on its own).  Do you want knowledge without aip cost, or aip reduction?  The latter is obviously more useful in the general case (unless you're already riding the AIP floor, and probably even then), but the two activities are not equivalent either.

To tie the two together conceptually/intuitively, and to make progress towards feature that had a lot of backing behind it in the past, we could call this category of activity "hacking".  Hacking wouldn't increase AIP in any way, but the AI would get more and more suspicious and take more and more drastic action to deal with this different threat vector, kind of like it has an entirely separate escalation agaisnt Fallen Spire stuff.  The science mark III could be renamed "Hacking Station" or something like that, to help differentiate it from the science lab line.

A couple other "hacking" activities occur to mind that would be relatively easy to implement:

- "Subverting" or "Sabotaging" an AI command station.  Basically you'd build a "Sabotage Station" or something like that just like a K-raiding station, and after the requisite time elapses it makes the AI command station on the planet self-destruct such that the AI thinks it was some stupid accident and no AIP is gained. But to balance this would make the AI way more suspicious (read: ferocious) of future hacking.

- "Hacking" an AI-controlled Advanced Research Station.  Again, another type of hacking-station, but this time after the requisite period has elapsed it lets you see the 3 bonus types that the ARS is researching (currently it has no concept of this, but it could be added without much difficulty), and pick which one you actually get when you capture the ARS, if the hacking-station is still alive at the time.  Chris has wanted to add some choice to the ARS system for a while, and this would be a way of doing it that involves a bit of trade-off just to get the choice.


Anyway, like I said, it's loony :)  But I'm interested in feedback.

looney ideas my butt. Implement all of this right now please :D
I don't like the idea of super terminals being able to sabotage your defences, but I don't mind them sending somewhat stronger waves at you. I especially like the ARS idea. Being able to chose one out of 3 or 4 ship types would be great, even if the AI hammers you for hacking it. Can't wait for you to implement some of these ideas in the near future ^^

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 06:54:04 pm »
Doesn't necessarily have to steal your K.  It could give the AI one of your bonus ships or something.  Hope you didn't pick blade spawners.
Now there you could be on to something :)
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Offline Catma

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 07:39:02 pm »

looney ideas my butt. Implement all of this right now please :D

^This.

I also really like the random rolls for K-raiding, but I DON'T like the idea of it spawning random roaming ships anywhere in the galaxy. It doesn't make sense thematically, as the AI is simply trying to stop the sabotage.
Here are some things for the K-raid roll table:

- Setting planets on alert for a fixed time period. Increase duration of alert, the MK lvl of planets to be alerted, I-II-III-IV-Core-Homeworld, depending on total K-raiding. This also has problems thematically, and further it is not an up-front cost.
- Chance to ring an alarm bell on a neighboring planet.
- Chance to trigger a CPA, wave, or Warp counterattack wave (with a long warning time so it doesn't disrupt the K-raid. Maybe warning time decreases depending on severity of k-raiding.)


So far all of the suggestions work to dissuade players from K-raiding too much. None of them address the fact that K-raiding is boring. It will certainly become interesting as more and more K is raided, but the first 1-3 raids will suck.

As I understand it, k-raids are supposed to:

- Have an up-front cost in being forced to fight NOW
- Have an opportunity cost, in that you have to pay attention and devote fleet ships/turrets/resources
- Not be terribly difficult at first, but become difficult later
- Never be a total cakewalk

I see no way to fix the early K-raids if all of these are required. You can already make it harder/faster by building multiple stations. My stock response to these situations is "Mini-game!".
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 07:41:04 pm by Catma »

Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 08:46:32 pm »
If you do go with the hacking route, I did have an idea that might work. Keep it as it is with weaker waves so long as you stay under a certain AI progress to K-Raid value, the more Progress you have, the more you can K-Raid easily, but don't cap the upper limit on Knowledge raiding, just make it slow down after 3000 points and the AI starts to send small, but rapidly growing EXO waves at you from that planet for every 100 or so points over the 3000 per planet limit so long as you are still raiding it. So you can knowledge raid to drain more knowledge then you would get just cleaning the planet, giving an incentive to do so, but do it too much and find Hunter Killers hopping out of the Command Station to show you exactly why you don't draw too much attention to yourself.



Offline Wanderer

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 09:04:59 pm »
Been batting this around while I've been watching massive data loads at work today.  I had some thoughts but I'm not sure I should share them, I kinda like where this is heading as is.  But, to go back a few pages.

3 planet pain: You'll have to account for the fleet increase for this or you could theoretically keep pace for a while.  I still think it's a little short but that's a biased opinion.  I understand your intent and you're correct.  I just don't wanna see my toy completely broken.  :P

Boredom: Lord is it.  When I was using the defensive troops technique I could at least be oot and aboot with the fleet taking care of other business at the cost of econ.  It's not worth it.  It's truly optimal to just SIT THERE AND STARE.  Woot?

So, I had a few ideas that might help.

1) Wild Mage: This could be toned down to in-system.  Part of the problem is the AI never gets a chance to actually get the fleet out the door.  There's an easy fix for this and the mechanic is already in game. 20% chance to spawn at the cmd station, 20% chance for each corner of the system like the warp gate dude who ignores warp gates.  You'll be surrounded in four directions and the spawns will get a chance to mass up and fight at their preferred ranges.  Blade Spawn hell, anyone?

2) Reinforcements:  This probably goes along with the hacking plans.  If you're K-Raiding a system, the AI knows it's being sabotaged.  This is not your normal 'ignore the puny earthlings' kind of event at low AIP.  This is a "Wait, WUT?!" type of event.  The AI knows the system is basically FUBAR, but it sends (for free) double AIP reinforcements to every SURROUNDING system already freed as Cross Border Aggression.  This could easily be adjusted to the K-Raided/Hacking values.

3) Core-world response.  I thought about this for a bit but then I'd K-Raid just to get the Core Ships off the homeworld.

4) Defensive Wave: A defensive wave is pulled from the exo-galaxy dockyards in response to the K-Raid.  Doesn't do much for the boredom of sitting there though, but it could be timed so that you don't pay while you're K-Raiding, you pay after.  Then again, when you get caught with yer butt in the air from a CPA and your fleet is K-Raiding the boonies, it'd feel about the same way.

So, that's existing mechanics with minor twists.

Sadly, I'm not sure if there IS a way to make it interesting.  It'd be like trying to figure out how to get beach-head creation interesting.  You only do that when you're desperate and the system is just THAT strong.  And even then, you have to be careful not to wake the entire system up while you build it, which means that you have to have the alert rules nailed to the floor.  It's complex and unwieldy.

K-Raiding could end up the same way if there's too many rules/variances.  They sound cool on paper, but I think it needs to be kept in mind, even mentioned occassionally.

ARS Hacking: In a heartbeat.  I don't think I'd take an ARS again without it.  Send your waves, I now have a fleet of the god-ships.

World hacking: Hrm, maybe.  errr... maybe.

Super-Terminal: You can blow 400 AIP off the top of your buildup with this puppy.  The only thing it costs you is the AI getting different types of ships.  I'll be the first to say it: There is no signficant pain to a high AIP Floor.  None.  Zilch.  Nada.  On that 9.0 game I could have waltzed into the homeworld if I'd gone back and played with the ST some more by more than halving my AIP.  You've already paid the price in AIP, lowering it to the floor is not difficult.  It needs to upgrade faster and look to do exo waves by 250 (50*5) reduction.  Even then I'm not sure it's enough.

Adding Hacking to it is minimal.  I never had to K-Raid until I went to the 9+ level.  It was actually pointless, I could handle 20 (or 100) AIP easier then I wanted to lose 20 minutes/2 hours.  It will not affect most games the same way that the ST does.  If you have an ST in your galaxy, you don't need to hack.  You smash and grab, trusting the ST to remove the pain.  It's going to need more than hacking to balance it off.

I just don't know what that is that doesn't end up as a super-nerf.  Hacking is probably a good start, I guess.  Sorry, bit of a rant.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 09:29:26 pm »
Oh, yeah, on the reverse hacking of powerplants and the like.  Don't destroy them, just lower them to 1 HP worth of construction and force them to be rebuilt.  That avoids the ZGen +10 for no reason but still makes you rebuild it.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 09:34:15 pm »
choosing a range of options for the ars would help eliminate many complaints from some units because you can pick the ships you want based on need.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2012, 09:39:36 pm »
choosing a range of options for the ars would help eliminate many complaints from some units because you can pick the ships you want based on need.

+1.  A handful of hyperspecialized ships that you can choose from in the later game as response to the AI would no longer be crushing when you pulled the *wrong* one out.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2012, 10:06:57 pm »
It would be great to see more saboteur things. Right now, there is only two, AI superterminals, and Mk. III science labs. Adding a way to get a little more flexibility with ARSs seems like a great new use for this mechanic.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2012, 10:24:26 pm »
Should the ars choices be complete randomized? I would be miffed if all three choices were melee ships and my strategy wasn't that. On the other hand, I'm still getting a choice, and that's better then before, lol.

What I would like if the ships were broken up into "classes" , even if it were very broad like "dps" and "extra effect" and only seen internally, and each ars would contain a dps, extra effect,  and a random ship.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 10:26:29 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2012, 10:36:00 pm »
Out of curiousity, what happens currently if multiple players K-Raid a system simultaneously?  Double spawn or single?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2012, 09:28:05 am »
3 planet pain: You'll have to account for the fleet increase for this or you could theoretically keep pace for a while.  I still think it's a little short but that's a biased opinion.  I understand your intent and you're correct.  I just don't wanna see my toy completely broken.  :P
Haha, yea, and I don't want to break something you're having fun with.  Though, as you've discovered, optimal use of it (while not nearly as obvious as the early 3.x days, due to time-cost) isn't really a lot of fun, either.  And I don't want it to be something that replaces planet-capture as the main/best way to get K in high-difficulty games.

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Boredom: Lord is it.  When I was using the defensive troops technique I could at least be oot and aboot with the fleet taking care of other business at the cost of econ.  It's not worth it.  It's truly optimal to just SIT THERE AND STARE.  Woot?
Thank you for confirming my suspicions ;)  Maybe one day there'll be a Boredom AI Type that wins games by changing the mechanics such that the way to beat it is too unspeakably monotonous to endure ;)

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1) Wild Mage: This could be toned down to in-system.  Part of the problem is the AI never gets a chance to actually get the fleet out the door.  There's an easy fix for this and the mechanic is already in game. 20% chance to spawn at the cmd station, 20% chance for each corner of the system like the warp gate dude who ignores warp gates.  You'll be surrounded in four directions and the spawns will get a chance to mass up and fight at their preferred ranges.  Blade Spawn hell, anyone?
I thought of that but thought it would be too weird since there aren't warp gates out there.  But who am I kidding thinking the whole idea isn't weird? ;)  So yea, one of the roll-ranges could be "short-range-warp-jump" like the warp-jumper.  Though as I'll say later on I'm thinking making this fun may involve a broader-than-system-specific response anyway.

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Sadly, I'm not sure if there IS a way to make it interesting.
I'm pretty sure there's always a way, but often there's a lateral solution that avoids the need for brute force injection of fun via IV.  Right now I'm thinking that changing k-raids from "build stationary station in system, fight pitched battle for 50 minutes" (plus wild mage rolls) to "sneak cloaked mobile hacking ship into system, remain stationary 30 seconds to start the hack, deal with widespread AI shenanigans for 20 minutes" (those widespread things being from the wild mage rolls).

Of course, that doesn't guaruntee "fun", I'm thinking that has more to do with "how much do I have to think to pull this off without dying", but correct me if I'm wrong.

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K-Raiding could end up the same way if there's too many rules/variances.  They sound cool on paper, but I think it needs to be kept in mind, even mentioned occassionally.
This is true, making it overly complex has other issues.  But even there it's not so much the complexity that shuts down a strategic option as the ways in which that complexity bounds it.  The beach-heading problem, for example, would probably be alleviated somewhat if there were some unit you could bring in (or structure you could build) that would suppress the local AI's "free everyone if the human has more than 2x my firepoer here" behavior.  How that would be explained in-game is another matter, of course, and I think there's a relatively long line of problems behind it that would just-as-effectively marginalize beach-heading.

Anyway, I'm mostly just throwing out ideas trying to figure out how to make k-raiding a fun part of the game and an interesting strategic option rather than a not-very-fun part of the game that can be used to short-circuit parts of the challenge of a high-difficulty game and thus borders on mandatory for said high-difficulty games.  And if time permits, some of these ideas will likely see trial-implementation soon.  But I need y'all to tell me if it's making the game less fun for you (it will take more than immediate emotional reactions to convince me of that, but this community is pretty good about moving past that stage too).


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ARS Hacking: In a heartbeat.  I don't think I'd take an ARS again without it.  Send your waves, I now have a fleet of the god-ships.
Glad you find it tempting ;)  A few points of clarification:

1) It wouldn't let you pick anything, it would just let you pick 1 of 3 randomly selected bonus types.
- 1 of which is the one it would have given you on-capture normally, though this will also involve some under-the-hood changes such that an ARS picks its bonus type at mapgen rather than you always getting the "next" bonus type regardless of which ARS is captured.

2) Hacking the ARS would not get you knowledge, but would increase the AI's response to future hacking (either ARS or K-raiding or whatever).  If you think of K-raiding in terms of "how much K can I raid before the response gets worse than I'm willing to deal with", then hacking an ARS "spends" some of that "safe buffer" of AIP-less K gain.  Just setting up a system of tradeoffs.

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World hacking: Hrm, maybe.  errr... maybe.
Haha, yea, it's more of a "candy that rots your teeth" option like a Nuke: tempting, and occasionally it's actually a good idea, but mostly there are far less dangerous ways of furthering your goals.


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Super-Terminal: You can blow 400 AIP off the top of your buildup with this puppy.  The only thing it costs you is the AI getting different types of ships.  I'll be the first to say it: There is no signficant pain to a high AIP Floor.  None.  Zilch.  Nada.  On that 9.0 game I could have waltzed into the homeworld if I'd gone back and played with the ST some more by more than halving my AIP.  You've already paid the price in AIP, lowering it to the floor is not difficult.  It needs to upgrade faster and look to do exo waves by 250 (50*5) reduction.  Even then I'm not sure it's enough.

Adding Hacking to it is minimal.  I never had to K-Raid until I went to the 9+ level.  It was actually pointless, I could handle 20 (or 100) AIP easier then I wanted to lose 20 minutes/2 hours.  It will not affect most games the same way that the ST does.  If you have an ST in your galaxy, you don't need to hack.  You smash and grab, trusting the ST to remove the pain.  It's going to need more than hacking to balance it off.

I just don't know what that is that doesn't end up as a super-nerf.  Hacking is probably a good start, I guess.  Sorry, bit of a rant.
But a good rant to have.  I've been getting pretty suspicious of the super terminal having the right cost/benefit ratio.  Last week I put in some changes for 5.027 to make them less tame (and, indeed, if mishandled an ST will kill you), but it will probably need more.  Trying to steer clear of nerfs (and particularly super-nerfs) as much as I can, but I want the ST to be more of a "riding a bull" experience where you reach a point where you really want to shut the thing down ;)  And a strategic choice, rather than an obvious "well, duh, riding this thing into the ground is obviously the best way, every single game".  That said, on diff 7 and whatnot it doesn't need to be apocalyptic.


Quote from: chemical_art
Should the ars choices be complete randomized? I would be miffed if all three choices were melee ships and my strategy wasn't that. On the other hand, I'm still getting a choice, and that's better then before, lol.

What I would like if the ships were broken up into "classes" , even if it were very broad like "dps" and "extra effect" and only seen internally, and each ars would contain a dps, extra effect,  and a random ship.
I think it will be completely randomized: you may not be fond of it, but we really like forcing a certain degree of variety ;)  Strategy didn't include melee ships?  Well, it does now, unless you don't plan to use the I/II caps of these you just got.  Figure out how to use what you got :)  But our root reason for that isn't developer-cruelty, it's that the game is more long-term fun if you don't get stuck in a rut of using the same ship types every game.  That said, it doesn't need to be quite as no-choice as it has been, hence the idea of making ARSs somewhat more flexible (though you pay for that flexibility, again encouraging a willingness to play the hand you're dealt).  And if there are any ships that are simply never good to get from an ARS, we want to know about those for rebalancing.

Quote from: GUDare
Out of curiousity, what happens currently if multiple players K-Raid a system simultaneously?  Double spawn or single?
The spawn size is multiplied by the number of III-stations present, regardless of which player(s) control them.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2012, 10:18:59 am »
I'm for speeding up the K-raiding pace (aka. increasing the knowledge/second that the Mk. III science lab generates), but increasing the ferocity of each reaction spawn accordingly.

Even if none of these other suggestions are done, I would strongly push for this. Just waiting around at 1 (or was it 2) knowledge per second for 3000 knowledge is agonizing. (that's 50 minutes for 1/s, 25 minutes for 2/s)
Already implemented. Just build more mkIII SLs; the research and spawn rates multiply accordingly.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2012, 10:53:30 am »
Really liking the Hacking system you've described Keith.  I think around 3 hacks (ARS, K-Raid, CS destruction) should probably be the point where it really gets too dangerous to hack much anymore.  I think being able to hack all five ARSs in a game trivially would be too much.

On possible response to higher hacking totals could be Security Guardians start to spawn, which have high health, long range tachyon beams and prevent hacking within their system.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Knowledge Raiding: Too easy/boring?
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2012, 12:45:47 pm »
And I don't want it to be something that replaces planet-capture as the main/best way to get K in high-difficulty games.
  Side note to that: Remember you have to take multi-connection system to get it to be optimal.  That means you're on every interstellar highway, and still take planets to do it.  Just a minor note to help offset the evil plans you have. ;)


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I thought of that but thought it would be too weird since there aren't warp gates out there.  But who am I kidding thinking the whole idea isn't weird? ;)  So yea, one of the roll-ranges could be "short-range-warp-jump" like the warp-jumper.  Though as I'll say later on I'm thinking making this fun may involve a broader-than-system-specific response anyway.
To quote: "We have max speed in space".  Wierd's okay.


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Of course, that doesn't guaruntee "fun", I'm thinking that has more to do with "how much do I have to think to pull this off without dying", but correct me if I'm wrong.
Dead on Target.  :)

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This is true, making it overly complex has other issues.  But even there it's not so much the complexity that shuts down a strategic option as the ways in which that complexity bounds it.
Apologies Keith, that comment wasn't necessarily directed at you, just a general warning.  As gamers many of us GM/DM paper and pen with house rules we understood and etc etc... It's real easy to rewrite a system that way to the point that noone outside knows it.

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But I need y'all to tell me if it's making the game less fun for you (it will take more than immediate emotional reactions to convince me of that, but this community is pretty good about moving past that stage too).
Can't know until we try them, but I'll do my best to be honest.

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Glad you find it tempting ;)  A few points of clarification:

1) It wouldn't let you pick anything, it would just let you pick 1 of 3 randomly selected bonus types.
- 1 of which is the one it would have given you on-capture normally, though this will also involve some under-the-hood changes such that an ARS picks its bonus type at mapgen rather than you always getting the "next" bonus type regardless of which ARS is captured.

2) Hacking the ARS would not get you knowledge, but would increase the AI's response to future hacking (either ARS or K-raiding or whatever).  If you think of K-raiding in terms of "how much K can I raid before the response gets worse than I'm willing to deal with", then hacking an ARS "spends" some of that "safe buffer" of AIP-less K gain.  Just setting up a system of tradeoffs.
Yep, that's how I understood you.  If I'm able to pick amongst the few specialist ships left behind later in the game though it'll be more than worth it.

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But a good rant to have.  I've been getting pretty suspicious of the super terminal having the right cost/benefit ratio.  Last week I put in some changes for 5.027 to make them less tame (and, indeed, if mishandled an ST will kill you), but it will probably need more.  Trying to steer clear of nerfs (and particularly super-nerfs) as much as I can, but I want the ST to be more of a "riding a bull" experience where you reach a point where you really want to shut the thing down ;)  And a strategic choice, rather than an obvious "well, duh, riding this thing into the ground is obviously the best way, every single game".  That said, on diff 7 and whatnot it doesn't need to be apocalyptic.
+1.  I've never gotten it to the point of wanting to shut it down if I use it. Well, unless it's "I'm bored and I'm near the floor".  Side note: Fallen Spire campaigns, it's ludicrous. :)

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