Knowledge raiding has become tedious and trivial. Change it.

[TDATL]

Hi, new to the boards and the game. Got it about a month ago.

An idea I just had while reading this thread.

Instead of having the science stations gather data themselves. Science stations become the focal point of an information gathering network. They become stationary and have a fixed resource usage. Instead of going from planet to planet or being built on many planets they have relay structures that feeds them data.

For a player to "raid" knowledge they will need to defend said relay in hostile space. The relays can only transmit threw one wormhole due to signal attenuation. They require another relay to then boost the signal to the next system.

This would do many things. It makes normal research less micro intensive. Instead of having to wait for your slow station to plod across space or load it in a transport you just build a relay node. It also provides fixed points that they AI can strike at to disrupt the gathering. The AI can then do more than just strike at nodes in the current system. It can attack your network at another point to disrupt your efforts. It also prevents you from having to track down a science lab to buy a research.

It also makes the abuse of transports for research much less likely.

various optional features include things such as

* requiring higher level nodes to allow more than one science station to gather through the relays

* applying restrictions on the placement of nodes to make them harder to defend (only near wormholes for example)

* allowing nodes to drain even on planets without supply provided you have a chain leading to it and/or require a special node type to achieve this.

The nodes should build relatively quickly and either drain energy and/or resources encouraging the players to rebuild their science lab closer to the "front" to minimize drain. This action would reduce the cost of the system at the risk of being more exposed to the AI's attacks.


Additionally new interactions could be done in relation to AI data centers and processors and the relays.

What do you guys think?

[Buttons840]

Hi, new to the boards and the game. Got it about a month ago.

An idea I just had while reading this thread.

Instead of having the science stations gather data themselves. Science stations become the focal point of an information gathering network. They become stationary and have a fixed resource usage. Instead of going from planet to planet or being built on many planets they have relay structures that feeds them data.

For a player to "raid" knowledge they will need to defend said relay in hostile space. The relays can only transmit threw one wormhole due to signal attenuation. They require another relay to then boost the signal to the next system.

This would do many things. It makes normal research less micro intensive. Instead of having to wait for your slow station to plod across space or load it in a transport you just build a relay node. It also provides fixed points that they AI can strike at to disrupt the gathering. The AI can then do more than just strike at nodes in the current system. It can attack your network at another point to disrupt your efforts. It also prevents you from having to track down a science lab to buy a research.

It also makes the abuse of transports for research much less likely.

various optional features include things such as

* requiring higher level nodes to allow more than one science station to gather through the relays

* applying restrictions on the placement of nodes to make them harder to defend (only near wormholes for example)

* allowing nodes to drain even on planets without supply provided you have a chain leading to it and/or require a special node type to achieve this.

The nodes should build relatively quickly and either drain energy and/or resources encouraging the players to rebuild their science lab closer to the "front" to minimize drain. This action would reduce the cost of the system at the risk of being more exposed to the AI's attacks.


Additionally new interactions could be done in relation to AI data centers and processors and the relays.

What do you guys think?

No complaints from me.

Whatever we settle on, as long as I don't have to do as much micro I'll be happy.

[rubikscube]

sure, less micro for the player, you know how much the developers have to change the game? A new unit like that will take a week the develop and months to balance. the only thing is auto research planets you own but hostile planets you just have to do it yourself, the developers have no intention to make such "exploits" easy for you

[SmileyFace]

Hmm, well, I'm reasonably convinced at this point that we should take the micro out of late-game k-raiding by some sort of research station like suggested before, without any untoward AI rage, and see if it really does make the game much easier or not.  If it does, then we can look at making it harder again

But I will need to run this one by Chris first, not the sort of thing I just do by myself

I'd love to see an attempt made at this. It won't make the game any easier, just less tedious. Heck, it might even make it more fun as the focus is shifted back to strategic targets/goals with greater effects than YAKR (yet another knowledge raid - sigh?).

I posted about this in the poll thread: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,5539.msg39941.html#msg39941.

[rubikscube]

first , it would make the game way too easy to get knowledge, second less tactical planning for capturing planets. removing all together is not a good idea

[rubikscube]

If removing all together, i see no purpose to scout as auto scouting should be there instead of a simple fix, no purpose to put your flight into formation as auto formation giving the best bonus possible should be there INSTEAD OF A SIMPLE FIX

[Lancefighter]

If removing all together, i see no purpose to scout as auto scouting should be there instead of a simple fix, no purpose to put your flight into formation as auto formation giving the best bonus possible should be there INSTEAD OF A SIMPLE FIX

seriously, stop trolling.

Also, scouting is a strategic information element.

And, planet capture never was TACTICS. It was always strategy. AI war is about the big picture, not about the tiny details. I agree, knowledge raids are a 'tactical' waste of time.

[WinterBorn]

Welcome to the forums TDAL.
Interesting idea for knowledge "pipelines"
Don't let rubikscube slow your participation down 

Hi, new to the boards and the game. Got it about a month ago.

An idea I just had while reading this thread.

Instead of having the science stations gather data themselves. Science stations become the focal point of an information gathering network. They become stationary and have a fixed resource usage. Instead of going from planet to planet or being built on many planets they have relay structures that feeds them data.

For a player to "raid" knowledge they will need to defend said relay in hostile space. The relays can only transmit threw one wormhole due to signal attenuation. They require another relay to then boost the signal to the next system.

This would do many things. It makes normal research less micro intensive. Instead of having to wait for your slow station to plod across space or load it in a transport you just build a relay node. It also provides fixed points that they AI can strike at to disrupt the gathering. The AI can then do more than just strike at nodes in the current system. It can attack your network at another point to disrupt your efforts. It also prevents you from having to track down a science lab to buy a research.

It also makes the abuse of transports for research much less likely.

various optional features include things such as

* requiring higher level nodes to allow more than one science station to gather through the relays

* applying restrictions on the placement of nodes to make them harder to defend (only near wormholes for example)

* allowing nodes to drain even on planets without supply provided you have a chain leading to it and/or require a special node type to achieve this.

The nodes should build relatively quickly and either drain energy and/or resources encouraging the players to rebuild their science lab closer to the "front" to minimize drain. This action would reduce the cost of the system at the risk of being more exposed to the AI's attacks.


Additionally new interactions could be done in relation to AI data centers and processors and the relays.

What do you guys think?

[Sizzle]

I also think the knowledge "pipeline" idea makes good sense, perhaps as an extension to Keith's concept of requiring a research network of stations placed 2 apart.  I'm thinking something along the idea of the pipeline must be x systems away from a research node, and if you want to extend your research net further, you can either build a pipeline out towards the systems that you want to gather research from, or if it is too 'far' away, you'll need to extend your research net by building a new 'node' research station.

Other possibilities:

Require your research net to be contiguous (that is, you lose the research income if the net is 'cut').   That would mean that enclaves would need to do knowledge raids the "old fashioned way".

[wyvern83]

Instead of having the science stations gather data themselves. Science stations become the focal point of an information gathering network. They become stationary and have a fixed resource usage. Instead of going from planet to planet or being built on many planets they have relay structures that feeds them data.

For a player to "raid" knowledge they will need to defend said relay in hostile space. The relays can only transmit threw one wormhole due to signal attenuation. They require another relay to then boost the signal to the next system.

First off, I want to stress that I appreciate the time you took to come with and suggest this idea and I hope you feel free to suggest ideas again in the future. Having said that I have some constructive criticism, so I hope you don't mind considering the points I'm going to bring up.

Signal attenuation as a reason for a network is not a bad idea however it contradicts the ease of command of what I presume is a tele-operated fleet.

Also if you must build a relay in the system to be raided you will be limited to planets that are in supply anyway. If the relay has a move and set-down-later function that would fix it but depending on the speed it just becomes another science vessel in terms of having to wait for it.

If it's just a normal immobile structure, a plus would be that it gives more point to building a mobile builder. However mobile builders are not that fast with a speed of 12, which is 4 slower than the current science vessel. Mobile builders do have mine avoidance though while science vessels do not.

If a mobile builder is required you will see transport usage anyway unless it must be on or near the wormhole. But then you are mandating that an involving turret ball or a fleet segment guard the relay while it transmits, which I'd rather not have to do atm. Some of us do this already so I'm not sure it would change things for them that much, they'd just have fewer choices.

- If the structure could be built in a friendly system it would be more different but that brings up some balance and game flow issues that keith is already looking at with his current concept.

- Some low AIP players don't connect their empires together in a unified front. Such players are just going to build new science vessels anyway since they will never have a continuous empire for AIP reasons. As a supplment and not a replacement it might still be interesting however.

[TDATL]

Also if you must build a relay in the system to be raided you will be limited to planets that are in supply anyway. If the relay has a move and set-down-later function that would fix it but depending on the speed it just becomes another science vessel in terms of having to wait for it.

I realized the limit of being in supply shortly after I posted the idea. I figured the idea was still usable but I forgot about your next point.

If it's just a normal immobile structure, a plus would be that it gives more point to building a mobile builder. However mobile builders are not that fast with a speed of 12, which is 4 slower than the current science vessel. Mobile builders do have mine avoidance though while science vessels do not.

I imagined it as an immobile structure. I have built so few mobile builders I forgot they didn't just tele around like the engineers. You are right that at that point we are back at needing transports and with less options.

Perhaps a special "raid relay" ship could be used. It could use a pickup and setdown system like you suggested. no weapons and a very limited cap on the ship. Since it has no weapons and must be guarded to be of use, giving it the speed of a fighter should let it keep up with the fleet without bogging it down.

Edit:

Signal attenuation as a reason for a network is not a bad idea however it contradicts the ease of command of what I presume is a tele-operated fleet.

Good point. Another explanation could be EM noise in the wormholes. It isn't enough to interfere with the simple messages like "move here," "attack there," "enemy location." The complex high volume data sent back from the relays is far more easily disrupted. Relays need more bandwidth and thus are less tolerant of noise inbetween links.

[Diazo]

But Knowledge Raging would be such fun

Anyway, what I'm thinking is that the humans would have to build up some sort of research network, so in order to actually get knowledge from one you'd have to have, say, 4 of these special stations in the galaxy, and they'd have to be at least 2 hops apart from each other.  That's a couple new mechanics but I don't think terribly difficult considering that command stations already have special placement-eligibility logic.  Also, I think the knowledge gather rate would be 1/s, so if you wanted the k fast you'd have to do something in addition to that.  Probably a moderate wave multiplier on the stations too, but nothing precipitous.

The goal behind the minimum-station-count requirement being to make sure you can't do it super-early game; the numbers being subject to change of course.

Anyway, thoughts? I'm sure someone can shoot it full of holes

Of the ideas I've seen, I like this one best because it keeps early game K-raiding the same, when it is important and a challenge.

I would suggest a more stations per higher mark system requirement (Mk I 3 stations, Mk II 5 stations, Mk III 7 stations, tweak as needed) so that the knowledge income is spread out over the game rather then you reach a magic number of stations and get all the knowledge at once.


A second and separate idea is a "knowledge cache" structure that is tractor-beamable and spawns next to the command stations (including your own on game start). Your science ships have to be within X (I'm thinking 25000 or so) distance of the cache to gather knowledge, or you can tractor the cache back to one of your planets and get the knowledge that way. This would be a 'raid' in that you are getting in, grabbing the cache and getting out, while still allowing the sit there and gather method without the 'transport to the edge of the map' method. Would be captured on planet ownership change so you can get the knowledge out after taking a planet. You would have to add a tractor beam to science ships and change knowledge to a "per cache" basis rather then a "per-system" basis though, so I'm not sure this is actually viable.


The last idea is that while Science ships can gather knowledge in a system without a friendly command station, they must return to a friendly system to actually pass that knowledge up the chain and make it useful. They would lose all knowledge gained from a hostile system if they enter a transport. This would allow you to still transport science ships past mines or when you are bypassing a system you haven't neutered, but prevents the 'transport to system edge' method as science ships would have to leave the system under their own power for the knowledge gained to be usable.

At the end of the day though, I'll get behind any change that:

a) nerfs the 'transport to edge of map'. (I see this as being overpowered or at least unintended.)

b) keeps early game K-raids similar as they are very important in the early game and worth your direct attention

c) changes how K-raids work later in the game. Your main fleet doesn't even notice most Mk III worlds by this point, so K-raiding as it currently stands is just time-consuming.

My $0.02

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Thanks for the comments, everyone

There does seem to be a common theme about certain k-raiding techniques seen as exploitative, and in general the no-risk-ness of k-raiding once you're at all on your feet.  There are a couple fairly simple things that could cut down on that:

1) As superking suggested, give science ships 1-AIP-on-death, so that sending 40 into an enemy system is not a no-brainer.
2) Make science ships non-cloakable; for fun I might let ARS's still be cloakable since you have such a finite number of those.
3) Make it so that science ships cannot enter a transport if there is a hostile command station present.  That way you could still get them out of the way using the transport (which I think has a valid place in k-raiding, so long as it doesn't trivialize it), but you couldn't use the same approach to get them back out (and they would no longer be as expendable due to item 1).  And "normal" use of transports to shuttle science ships around would be unaffected.

[Sizzle]

So here is my fears/comments regarding this:

1) Give science ships 1-AIP-on-death, so that sending 40 into an enemy system is not a no-brainer.
Will definately give a chilling effect so that you want to protect your science vessels.

2) Make science ships non-cloakable; for fun I might let ARS's still be cloakable since you have such a finite number of those.
So cloaking is out....

3) Make it so that science ships cannot enter a transport if there is a hostile command station present.  That way you could still get them out of the way using the transport (which I think has a valid place in k-raiding, so long as it doesn't trivialize it), but you couldn't use the same approach to get them back out (and they would no longer be as expendable due to item 1).  And "normal" use of transports to shuttle science ships around would be unaffected.
Transports are out except to get them past mines.

So the only viable strategy if you want your science ships safe that remains is:

1) massive fleet / turret ball to protect the science vessels including anti sniper turrets / scouts.
2) neuter / glass the system, then bring in your science ships.

IMO this is even MORE of a pain and turns knowledge raiding into a slog where you have to haul your fleet around to get knowledge even late game.

Someone please let me know that I'm missing something.....

[keith.lamothe]

I didn't mean those would be to the exclusion of a remote-knowledge-gathering method for late game.

And I'm not set on doing those, though a 1 AIP increase does seem in order to provide proportional risk for folks who just mob AI systems with dozens and dozens of science ships.

I think the cloaking technique could be left as-is, it's just a question of whether it's too much of an exploit.  Since you generally have to do something to prevent tachyon units from exposing you I don't think it's too exploitative, but I was getting the impression from a lot of players that they thought it was.

On the transports, again, I'm reacting to players saying they think it's an exploit (though on thinking about it I find it something of one too).  So that's my question to y'all: is it legit to put some science ships into a transport, rush through the wormhole to the outer range of normal-speed space, dump the science ships, wait until either you have the K or the enemy shots are finally catching up and load it back up and get out of dodge?

Personally I think it's a bit much; outrunning/kiting stuff is fine for fast moving units in combat, but "doing intensive surveys and research" and "kiting" seem thematically incompatible to me

But it's not my goal to ruin anyone's game here (well, if I do, it will probably involve the AI going bananas on you, not nerfing everything you find useful).