Knowledge raiding has become tedious and trivial. Change it.

[keith.lamothe]

One idea that comes to mind is that if an AI command station is present on a planet, science ships can only generate knowledge on that planet if they are within, say, 2000 range of that station.  It would solve the k-raiding-off-in-the-middle-of-nowhere thing.

Doesn't make a ton of sense thematically, but it could be said that the AI jams normal scientific survey and whatnot and the only way to get the knowledge from that planet is to steal it from the command station databanks.

Or, somewhat simpler, that if there's an AI command station present, the science ships have to be within X range of the planet center.

Though the general impression I'm getting from folks is that they'd rather just have a costly-to-get button which, when clicked, gets all available knowledge from all planets in supply.

Well, how about this: a command station module (or even special command station) that gets knowledge from all adjacent planets at 2/s or something, but causes the AI to aggressively spawn ships against that station (and if it's destroyed it's +40 AIP or something like that).  Would probably be based on similar factors as my earlier suggestion of the super-terminal-like behavior.

It's pretty similar to a few suggestions earlier in this thread, though I would probably make the wave/attack mechanic a much more immediate reaction than the usual wave multiplier thing.  The multiplier is easier but a sort of immediate rolling spawn is more thematically appropriate (the AI is trying to stop you, NOW), makes it harder to repeatedly build-and-scrap the special structure to exploit the timing of wave multipliers (though if the +AIP applied on scrapping too that would be another thing), and finally allows greater flexibility for the spawn strength to be relative to total human knowledge and that sort of thing.

The spawn would only be from bordering AI worlds; if you had taken down all neighboring AI command stations there would be no penalty.

Anyway, does that sound any better?  There would be micro in that you'd need to defend the station, but I'm getting the impression that that would be more tolerable (maybe even enjoyable?) than microing an operation in each of the bordering planets.

Edit: to be clear, the spawns would stop when all the knowledge had been collected, though scrapping the structure would still cause AIP, though I'm not sure about that (I like it from the sense of it being at tradeoff that you can't build one of the other command stations, or modules if we go that route).

[Adetia]

Why not a new capturable AI object that blocks all player knowledge gain/supply in all adjacent planets while the AI holds it? Have it cost at least 20+ or so AIP if destroyed. If captured it could cost X resources per second and use Y energy (for each adjacent planet) but it will also steal 1 knowledge per second for each surrounding planet, maybe add a wave modifier as well. Could even add an interesting yet really annoying new AI type that uses these on all it's planets.

[keith.lamothe]

That would be interesting to do, and if folks want it I think that would be good as an additional piece to making knowledge somewhat more textured (probably not blocking supply, already have to deal with enough of that, etc), but I don't think it would deal with the general problem that mid/endgame k-raiding is tedious for a fair chunk of players.

[Adetia]

I agree, but it could help a bit since they only have to capture 1 planet to gain the knowledge of all adjacent planets. I doubt there is one single solution for the problem here as it is a core game mechanic. I do agree with the OP though, I started a topic in the suggests forum on making smaller maps more playable for pretty much the same reasons (game gets tedious and becomes a grind after a certain point).

There is too much reward with making knowledge raiding 'easy' because in this game (and in general) knowledge is power. I could think of plenty of ways to abuse any player built object with the ability to gather knowledge from adjacent systems (spokes, vines, and hub maps come to mind).

[keith.lamothe]

game gets tedious and becomes a grind after a certain point

I have noticed that many players feel that way (I did see your post about the smaller map scaling of stuff, etc).  We have some ideas for mechanics to make the bit between "I've stabilized my base of power" and "I'm assaulting the enemy homeworlds" more interesting, but that's mostly going to need to wait until the micro-expansion.

I could think of plenty of ways to abuse any player built object with the ability to gather knowledge from adjacent systems (spokes, vines, and hub maps come to mind).

It's certainly a powerful ability, but I think it can be balanced in terms of the effort involved in defense and risk of AIP and whatnot.  What I'm looking for is a way where players in a position to execute a normal knowledge-raid with trivial challenge but non-trivial micro can choose to make a trade whereby they could concentrate those several conflicts into one "riding the infuriated bull" situation with more interest and risk.  I do not think the result would be a significant decrease to difficulty for those players, nor a significant increase to other players with less of a grasp on the fine art of taking the AI's candy since they could simply choose not to build the structure.

Still looking for comments

[Buttons840]

I put up a poll about this: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,5539.0.html

I still support my idea to automated it to the point that I never have to think about it, but only in the late game.

Keith, some of your suggestions about making the AI respond specially and specifically to resource gathering sounds like a bit of a hack to me.  IMO, it's as though your not seeking a comprehensive solution, but solving every tiny problem though 10,000 conditional checks.  The super-terminal like response from the AI command station is my main complaint.

The command station idea will be exploitable (unless it's not .  I'll just delete/scuttle the command station before it ever dies and rebuild it using a dirt cheap colony ship.  If I can't scuttle it without taking AIP, then I'll still scuttle it and get it over with, since it will probably end up dying anyways and I mine as well have it producing resources now.  IMO AIP penalties are too step to justify, and would be like golems which are rarely used.

You could give the proposed mark III research station/structure (Mobile or stationary?  I don't care.) an initial knowledge cost and a large resource cost, thus making it mainly useful in the late game when you would have enough resources to build it.  It could also have AI wave penalties if further risk is needed.  

About hacking, shouldn't the AI prefer to attack any position which has wave penalties, or at least consider this when choosing where to attack, or does it already do this?  This would seem a more comprehensive implementation rather than a bunch of logic specific to only research stations.

game gets tedious and becomes a grind after a certain point

I have noticed that many players feel that way (I did see your post about the smaller map scaling of stuff, etc).  We have some ideas for mechanics to make the bit between "I've stabilized my base of power" and "I'm assaulting the enemy homeworlds" more interesting, but that's mostly going to need to wait until the micro-expansion.

I don't mind the grind so long as I'm actually progressing towards my ultimate goal, but I do get tired of ever increasing "batting sitting" that must occur as you expand.  This being one of the main motivations behind my suggestions.

[rubikscube]

if you have to use knowledge to unlock your so called "automated science lab, then no"

How about this, auto collect knowledge to a string of planets you own . perhaps if you own 5 or more planets that's connected, it will auto collect knowledge for you, but if you get a planet by itself in the open, you have to knowledge raid everything else. that would make everything easier to expand but to a point you have to remember the ai progress.

[Buttons840]

if you have to use knowledge to unlock your so called "automated science lab, then no"

How about this, auto collect knowledge to a string of planets you own . perhaps if you own 5 or more planets that's connected, it will auto collect knowledge for you, but if you get a planet by itself in the open, you have to knowledge raid everything else. that would make everything easier to expand but to a point you have to remember the ai progress.

Just make all command stations gather knowledge in this case.  Gathering knowledge on your own planet is trivial in any circumstance.

[rubikscube]

well, that's one thing right, knowledge on own planet should be automated, but on supplied planets should only be connected to a main stream of planets

[keith.lamothe]

I still support my idea to automated it to the point that I never have to think about it, but only in the late game.

I guess my question then is: why not just have it say "You Win" at that point?  Or do you still get challenge at that point even with 100k+ knowledge?

Keith, some of your suggestions about making the AI respond specially and specifically to resource gathering sounds like a bit of a hack to me.  IMO, it's as though your not seeking a comprehensive solution, but solving every tiny problem though 10,000 conditional checks.  The super-terminal like response from the AI command station is my main complaint.

I'm just trying to find a way of making knowledge gathering more interesting, for those who want it that way.  Part of why it would seem conditional (not nearly so many checks as you might think, but I digress) is that we've already heard from a number of players that don't want it comprehensively more difficult.  Neither do you, you just want it to give you all the knowledge and be done with it  But I'm not sold on that idea either.  Anyway, thanks for posting that poll, I'll be interested in the results.

The command station idea will be exploitable (unless it's not .  I'll just delete/scuttle the command station before it ever dies and rebuild it using a dirt cheap colony ship.  If I can't scuttle it without taking AIP, then I'll still scuttle it and get it over with, since it will probably end up dying anyways and I mine as well have it producing resources now.  IMO AIP penalties are too step to justify, and would be like golems which are rarely used.

Yea, the idea is that you'd only get the AIP if you failed your knowledge grab (that is, lost the station), rather than paying it just for trying.  On the scuttling; I would likely make a rule for those that you can scrap without AIP if it's already gotten all the knowledge from its planet and the neighbors.  But I'm not trying to work out all the details on that since it may not be a worthwhile path in general.

You could give the proposed mark III research station/structure (Mobile or stationary?  I don't care.) an initial knowledge cost and a large resource cost, thus making it mainly useful in the late game when you would have enough resources to build it.  It could also have AI wave penalties if further risk is needed.

About hacking, shouldn't the AI prefer to attack any position which has wave penalties, or at least consider this when choosing where to attack, or does it already do this?  This would seem a more comprehensive implementation rather than a bunch of logic specific to only research stations.

Well, the wave multipliers are one way that would certainly work on the average, but if you scuttle the structure before a wave is sent against that planet then the multiplier doesn't apply (well, I think you have to scuttle it, save your game, quit, and reload, but it's basically never done since those structures all give AIP on scrapping).  Also, times between waves can be pretty large, and I was looking for a more immediate reaction to something that you'll probably be done with fairly quickly (1000s ~= 16.6 minutes).

As for knowledge cost and large resource cost... well, I guess it depends on the magnitude, but generally something with a really large resource cost takes a long time to build, etc.  Would you really rather deal with that instead of an AI assault?

And on the more recent posts: I'm happy to provide a sort of auto-explore for science ships to automatically go to planets you actually already own to get the knowledge (assuming they don't have to cross hostiles, etc), what I'm focusing on here is knowledge from hostile planets in supply.

[rubikscube]

how about you make the science labs vulnerble to turrets and cannot be dropped off on hostile planets, will be interesting and easy if all you have to do is clear the worm hole and then come back and fetch them when you need it but that's a wierd and desperate move.

[Ktoff]

how about you make the science labs vulnerble to turrets and cannot be dropped off on hostile planets, will be interesting and easy if all you have to do is clear the worm hole and then come back and fetch them when you need it but that's a wierd and desperate move.

Even easier: No Science labs in transports :-)

[rubikscube]

yeah but that would have to change a lot of stuff such as what about just transporting to friendly planets? maybe you can't drop off on hostile planets, what about mobile builders, they're like in the same genre as science labs and changing it just for gameplay won't be cool,

[Buttons840]

I still support my idea to automated it to the point that I never have to think about it, but only in the late game.

I guess my question then is: why not just have it say "You Win" at that point?  Or do you still get challenge at that point even with 100k+ knowledge?

...

As for knowledge cost and large resource cost... well, I guess it depends on the magnitude, but generally something with a really large resource cost takes a long time to build, etc.  Would you really rather deal with that instead of an AI assault?

First: The idea is that you would only get automated knowledge from planets with supply.  Currently, your guaranteed to get all knowledge from all supplied planets with the fail-proof cloaker/transport combo.  If my change were implemented you would be guaranteed to get all knowledge from all supplied planets with the mark III research.  There is no big difference between the two save the latter requires less micro.  You would not be magically given 100,000 knowledge, and knowledge gathering would probably be slower than my current cloaker/transport combo, because I use a few research stations for 6 to 8 knowledge per second.

This leaves the meta-game of choosing planets for maximum supply coverage in tact.  Like when you take a planet not because it has good resources or a important capture, but only because it's connected to 8 other planets which can then be knowledge raided because of the new supply they have received.  It's a game of choosing your planet layout for maximum supply coverage, but with the fewest captured planets possible so the AIP stays low.  Again, this meta-game will still be important.

Second: Yes, I would rather spend considerable (I'm thinking 200k of each, or less) resources on my so-called mark III research station because it would reduce micro, and get rid of the "television commercial" effect.  "I finally found a mark IV factory, this is exciting!  Oh, time to knowledge raid.  I found the Dyson Sphere finally, that should really help.  Wait, time to knowledge raid.  I think I'm ready to attack the AI core station, it all comes down to this.  But first, I better knowledge raid."  You get the point.    That +0/s on the knowledge HUD seems to pop out at me every time things get interesting.

I think I'm going to end up shooting myself in the foot with this tread because right now we seem to be headed towards a double down on the distraction by making the AI rage every time I raid.

(I fear my tone is angry, but I don't intend it to be.)

[RCIX]

I'm with Buttons here. Late game, I often kick the game into +1 (if it isn't already) for knowledge raiding, just so i don't have to sit through my fleet shredding stray enemy ships as long.