Just how hard is the level 10 AI? (Answer: Apocalyptically hard)

[x4000]

So, you might be curious how hard the level 10 AI is in the game -- that's the hardest AI level, if you're wondering.  Let's put it this way: we here at Arcen Games don't know anyone who lasts more than 5-10 minutes.  The level 10 AI might very well be impossibly hard, we aren't sure.

So why would we put an AI like that in the game?  Well, there are 9 other levels of AI in the game.  The game was balanced so that the devs -- who are well pretty great at RTS games, but who are not world-class players by any stretch of the imagination -- would be highly challenged at the level 7 difficulty, winning most of the time but always at the bring of losing.  At level 8, we lose most of the time.

I really wanted for the game to still be a challenge for RTS players that are much better than we are, so that the game would be interesting to players of all levels.  If you've never played and RTS before, and are just getting used to managing all of the crazy subsystems and conventions that RTS players take for granted, then difficulty level 1 is where you should be.  If you're an experienced RTS player, you should probably start around level 4 or 5 after going through all the tutorials.  Most experienced RTS players will probably max out around level 6 or 7, tops.  The best players will mostly probably cap out at level 8 or 9.

If you manage to beat a pair of level 10 AIs, I'd really be interested to know about it!   I'd love to know how long it took, what your final score was, what general strategy you used, and what AI styles you played against. I really do think that level 10 AIs are beatable, just not by anybody I know.  So I fully expect someone to emerge victorious on that difficulty level, I just don't know when, how, or by who that will happen.

Oh, and if you're so incredibly awesome that you beat the level 10 AIs with ease, then don't despair:  the AI styles themselves are grouped into three overall tiers (EASIER, MODERATE, and HARDER), and pairing many of the HARDER AI styles with the level 10 difficulty might well provide the impossible challenge you are looking for.  And if that still doesn't do it for you, you can make it 300% more difficult by giving a pair of HARDER style AIs each on difficulty level 10 a 300% handicap.  Oh, and you could use a more challenging AI Modifier, too, like Schizophrenic or Double Waves.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a challenge here for everyone, no matter how newbie or amazingly world-bendingly Bobby-Fischer-crushing a player you are.  But if you're that godlike and you ever top out, let's talk, and I'll hook you up with something even more challenging as part of a free DLC release.

[Haagenti]

So, you might be curious how hard the level 10 AI is in the game -- that's the hardest AI level, if you're wondering.  Let's put it this way: we here at Arcen Games don't know anyone who lasts more than 5-10 minutes.  

You do now. Playing against two Level 10 Moderate AIs for an hour as we speak. Everything is on except Astrotrains. No bonus, no handicap.

The level 10 AI might very well be impossibly hard, we aren't sure.

I'm more than holding my own and slowly amassing an attack force for my first invasion. If the AI has no further surprises, I think it may actually be possible to beat it, though it will not be easy or quick. If only you hadn't nerfed the "Produce all your energy at one planet", this would have been a LOT easier.

If you manage to beat a pair of level 10 AIs, I'd really be interested to know about it!  I'd love to know how long it took, what your final score was, what general strategy you used, and what AI styles you played against. I really do think that level 10 AIs are beatable, just not by anybody I know.  So I fully expect someone to emerge victorious on that difficulty level, I just don't know when, how, or by who that will happen.

I'll write an AAR when I know more.

Oh, and if you're so incredibly awesome that you beat the level 10 AIs with ease, then don't despair:  the AI styles themselves are grouped into three overall tiers (EASIER, MODERATE, and HARDER), and pairing many of the HARDER AI styles with the level 10 difficulty might well provide the impossible challenge you are looking for.  And if that still doesn't do it for you, you can make it 300% more difficult by giving a pair of HARDER style AIs each on difficulty level 10 a 300% handicap.  Oh, and you could use a more challenging AI Modifier, too, like Schizophrenic or Double Waves.

No thanks. Map, special unit and AIs were specifically chosen so I might beat them. Someone even more incredibly awesome than me will have to do this  

[Revenantus]

I managed to take a few planets from two level 9 AIs, but found that the AI was gaining strength extremely quickly - I ultimately gave up on that game because my rate of progression was just so slow.

Keep us posted on how it goes. Call me pessimistic but I have a suspicion that the increased strength of the AI won't be offset by the resources you gain and things are going to become increasingly difficult for you.

Good luck!!

[Haagenti]

The going is hard. It is obvious that unless I'm able to use the AI's resources against itself, I can never hope to keep up.

I'm using Parasites vs 2 Cloakmasters. This works wonderfully well:
- the cloaked raids are not extremely dangerous as cloaked ships are quite weak and often do not attack all at once
- stolen ships recloak after a few seconds, so they wont be shot down by their former comrades
- I have built a large position of cheap turrets around my orbital station (with a few tractorbeams to stop EtherJets from stealing)
- I'm amassing large quantities of Parasited ships (especially EtherJets)

I'm experimenting with what I call the "It followed me home, can I keep it?" strategy
- Put a fleet which is heavy on Parasites near a Wormhole
- Send 30 EtherJets through on a fishing expedition
- After awhile they come back with 30 ships
- Parasite everything and heal it up with engineers.
- Repeat
This gains ships of a better quality than I can build and at little cost.

If this doesn't work, I don't know what will....

[Admiral]

No thanks. Map, special unit and AIs were specifically chosen so I might beat them. Someone even more incredibly awesome than me will have to do this  

Do share! Map seed (and other info), starting planet/special unit, and which AIs?

[x4000]

I have to say, I am very impressed, Haagenti.

[Haagenti]

Do share! Map seed (and other info), starting planet/special unit, and which AIs?

The AIs are listed above, my seed is 1023437501, and I'm starting with the parasite planet. The reasons for this map include:
- the ability to create a corner with 4 planets which has only a few connections with the rest of the map
- this gives me a few safe planets and I can create a killzone at the bottom planet of the four
- the map is strongly connected: there are no long strings of planets to work my way through and there are multiple ways to everywhere.

I intend to take the four planets, then scorch the one to the left of my home planet. The remaining "contact" planet is a lvl IV planet with three Ion Guns, so I intend to leave that one "for a while". After taking the four planets I intend to deep raid to kill data centers to reduce the AI level and gain knowledge. There are 21 Data Centers, hopefully I can find enough to keep the AI level to 0 while taking more planets.

I also hope to be able to steal enough ships so that I can use my Knowledge for different things than the normal II/III combat ships. I need more turrets and lvl III engineers as these cannot be stolen by enemy Etherjets. I also suspect that I'll be needing high-level scouts.  And I'm wondering how good a mobile forcefield will work in combination with parasites

I have to say, I am very impressed, Haagenti.

Thanks. I am very impressed with the level of support for this game  

[Haagenti]

Well...I can definitely survive almost indefinitely, but after 1:30 of game time I'm still at my home planet. I have to reload once in a while (yes: I save and reload when I make a bad mistake, sue me), and the micromanagement is killing me, so I can't play long stretches.

All planets around me are building large stacks of ships

But I have found some tactics that work to cull planets without suffering casualties:
- If you fly Etherjets past an enemy group, they will grab them without uncloaking themselves. You can then drag them through a wormhole to your waiting parasite fleet and they can't fire at your Etherjets
- The enemy has a lot of cloaked ships. If you suspect where they are (near wormholes), you can uncloak a single autocannon, they uncloak to fire on it, and it's parasite city for them.

I'm not sure if it is enough. I need another hour of building, before I have maxed out a warfleet which may take a planet. Etherjets will also play a big role there:
- you can drag groups of enemy ships toward you if your cruisers have nothing to fire at
- you can park groups of enemy ships away from you if you are being overwhelmed and bring them back later

And taking my first planet will not help immediately, I need to clear three of them before I can safely start building on two of them and scorch a fourth before I can build the third.

Then, and only then can I start looking outward. This definitely takes me back to the days where I used to play war games that took 100+ hours of playing time.

[darke]

The AIs are listed above, my seed is 1023437501, and I'm starting with the parasite planet.

Also realistic map type and complex ships by the look of it.

Wonder how hard it would be with a pair of special forces captains, or backdoor hackers? Though I'm going to play with +50% resource production. If I'm going to fail, I want to do so as quickly as possible.

[x4000]

Well...I can definitely survive almost indefinitely, but after 1:30 of game time I'm still at my home planet. I have to reload once in a while (yes: I save and reload when I make a bad mistake, sue me), and the micromanagement is killing me, so I can't play long stretches.

This is very interesting. The cross-planet attacks that are planned for shortly should remove that imbalance.  At the moment, if you were to play indefinitely, then the AI would eventually get so well defended at all of the adjacent planets that you would be at a perfect stalemate.  With that other new feature in there, the AI would kill you before that could happen.

[Haagenti]

Also realistic map type and complex ships by the look of it.

That just makes it easier for me.
- Simple maps have long "strings" of planets. The strings force you to take more planets, and the probability of encountering a IV planet on a chokepoint is much higher. And on level 10 planets may have multiple Ion Cannons.
- Complex ships: one word: Etherjets.

Wonder how hard it would be with a pair of special forces captains, or backdoor hackers? Though I'm going to play with +50% resource production. If I'm going to fail, I want to do so as quickly as possible.

I could survive the early going because the CloakMasters raided me with weak stuff. SFC will not be so merciful. Tactical tip: build turrets in a circle around your home station at such a range that they can just hit your home station. Put a ring of MLRS turrets inside that ring. This means that cruisers will keep more distance from your station, yet fighters/bombers that come close will still be in range of many turrets. You may live a few more minutes. If you live long enough, spend your Knowledge on turrets.

In related news, the forces of the Haagenti Empire successfully invaded the first planet and cleared it. All in all, over a 1000 AI ships were eliminated in what was described as a "massive turkey-shoot". Casualties on our side are said to be "less than zero". This has brought the ratio of AI ships vs Haagenti ships to a mere 50:1.

In more grim news, it seems that the enemy is deploying a new stealth-detecting device at their wormholes. All our scouts disappeared at the same time. Our coverage continues......

This is very interesting. The cross-planet attacks that are planned for shortly should remove that imbalance.  At the moment, if you were to play indefinitely, then the AI would eventually get so well defended at all of the adjacent planets that you would be at a perfect stalemate.  With that other new feature in there, the AI would kill you before that could happen.

AI 10 is becoming a metaphor for life. You struggle, you approach the top, and then they change the rules and you are back down again.  

[x4000]

AI 10 is becoming a metaphor for life. You struggle, you approach the top, and then they change the rules and you are back down again. 

Well, as the AI gets ever-smarter, that makes the upper difficulties ever-more-challenging by nature. 

[darke]

Also realistic map type and complex ships by the look of it.

That just makes it easier for me.
- Simple maps have long "strings" of planets. The strings force you to take more planets, and the probability of encountering a IV planet on a chokepoint is much higher. And on level 10 planets may have multiple Ion Cannons.
- Complex ships: one word: Etherjets.

Interesting just how different my tactics are compared to pretty much everyone else on the forum. I took the opposite approach with the planets. Used simple maps and hit random seed until I found a parasite planet with only two wormhole exits. Conveniently enough it's something like 4 planets from a dead end on one side, and the next planet on the other side has 3 or 4 exit wormholes. So once I get myself established on all the dead-end planets, I can then hammer my way through it (nuke if I'm lazy) and then start tracking things down.

Wonder how hard it would be with a pair of special forces captains, or backdoor hackers? Though I'm going to play with +50% resource production. If I'm going to fail, I want to do so as quickly as possible.

I could survive the early going because the CloakMasters raided me with weak stuff. SFC will not be so merciful. Tactical tip: build turrets in a circle around your home station at such a range that they can just hit your home station. Put a ring of MLRS turrets inside that ring. This means that cruisers will keep more distance from your station, yet fighters/bombers that come close will still be in range of many turrets. You may live a few more minutes. If you live long enough, spend your Knowledge on turrets.

I ended up just trailing turrets between the wormholes and my base. Half dozen of each turret and a tractor beam in the middle. Seems to slow things down nicely, or at the very least break the groups into smaller chunks too even if they do take out the tractor turret.

SFC are relatively toothless on Normal play style so I was going to play with them, but I really don't have the patience to deal with ships crawling along at such a leisurely speed. Ended up going with a pair of Teleport Turtles for extra hurt. They're absolutely lethal on wormhole assaults, and, well pretty much a lot of things playing F&D, on the other hand they don't send any waves in, just lots of random guys wandering through wormholes.

I'd actually recommend trying a game with a pair of the "easier" basic Turtles. They're a pain to assault due to their defenses, but on the other hand you have a bit more control over things because you're initiating most of the "waves". Also, I think I mentioned this in my rambling post in another thread about making the game more challenging, but the first time you're playing something you know is going to be completely out of your depth, it's worth giving yourself +50%/+100% extra resources. In a long game it doesn't make things all that much easier, but it does make things easier at the start where you're fumbling around trying to work out good tactics so you can afford to make a mistake or two without having to start from scratch again. Makes the game feel considerably more like a game, rather then an exercise in timing how quick you can press the quicksave/quickload keys.

I've so far managed to take out three planets, the second and third of which were Tech III (2nd had two Ion Cannons, 3rd had one). Lightning missiles are essential (well, even more essential then usual with teleport turtles...), and it's somewhat easier to get the AI to take out their (former) Ion Cannons then it is for you to.

If you can get the planet's total of ships down to a number you think you can defend against on your side of the wormhole (and with the stealth guys, it's probably less then whatever number you're thinking of, since they're rather weak ). Take out the command center (you can be lazy and use a lightning missile for this; that way you can keep your large defense force near your wormhole ready to retreat), weather the assault, then toss through a colony ship and engineers (and a little defense) and quickly build a command center, then flee. The AI will probably take it down in seconds, but it'll also take down the Ion Cannon(s) as well.

So then you're left with a planet that isn't continually reinforcing, but an absolute ton of turrets and probably still quite a few ships to take out. But if you pop back into the world, rebuild your command center you can probably defend it now, then just slowly wipe everything out.

EDIT: Had to give up on this. Kept running straight into the AI bug where it seems to be overloaded with things to do (despite it indicating there's nothing really happening), so it doesn't do things like unpack your ships when you go through a wormhole so they sit there in a "still travelling" state being eaten alive by the enemy, but they don't attack, etc. Not just happening in wormhole assaults, it also happens occasionally when just dragging your ships around the place. Also things like repairers stop working as well, even though your ships may be shooting at enemies fine (wasn't negative energy, I checked ).

[x4000]

EDIT: Had to give up on this. Kept running straight into the AI bug where it seems to be overloaded with things to do (despite it indicating there's nothing really happening), so it doesn't do things like unpack your ships when you go through a wormhole so they sit there in a "still travelling" state being eaten alive by the enemy, but they don't attack, etc. Not just happening in wormhole assaults, it also happens occasionally when just dragging your ships around the place. Also things like repairers stop working as well, even though your ships may be shooting at enemies fine (wasn't negative energy, I checked ).

Having guys bunch up at the other side of a wormhole is one issue, but having repairers stop working or ships stop moving when being dragged around, are two totally other issues that I have not seen.  I guess it's possible that their reaction time was just slow due to their being ungodly amounts of ships, but with a low planet count I doubt it.  Can you post a savegame for that, or if it happens again?

[darke]

Steps to reproduce:

Hope that Darke has attached the right save.
Goto Orimicci (bottom left corner).
Select ships sitting on top of the Mellau wormhole (top left corner; for any values of "corner" a circle might have).
Ctrl-right-click to send them through to Mellau.
Ctrl-left-click to flip to Mellau.
Select ships once they all seem to be in Mellau.
Ctrl-right-click to send them to Orimicci.
Observe them only half "unfold" on Orimicci. The Tech III repairers nearby may or may not repair them.
Select ships and ctrl-right-click to send them to Mellau.
Ctrl-left-click to flip to Mellau.
Observe ships stuck in a single pile, not attacking anything in range (if there's anything in range). And being hit by Ion Cannons and the like.

For repairers not repairing:
Load the same game.
Send the same ships through the wormhole.
Select and send the Tech III engineers through the wormhole.
Move the ships around a bit and observe they bunch up; and they're wounded.
Move the stack of engineers around a bit, observer they were bunched up (and still "invisible") from moving through the wormhole.
Move stack of engineers near stack of ships; note lack of zappy-healing-beams.

If you pause the game and wait for a bit, then unpause, suddenly the piles unpack a little, and some of the engineers will start healing.