Author Topic: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts  (Read 2561 times)

Offline dotjd

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Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« on: July 12, 2011, 01:34:39 pm »
Sup.  As I said, I've just bought the game, and have been really enjoying it over the past few days.  I normally wouldn't do this, but since the devs seem to enjoy reading every post on their forums, something I've never seen before, and since the person I normally talk about games with isn't really into grand strategy or RTS, I thought I'd post what I'm thinking.  And ask for a bit of advice.

First, the game is really good, on the whole.  It's similar to Sins, but without the useless and 100% mechanical civ parts, and with better AI.  You have no idea how appreciated both of those things are.  And instead, it has rank and better coop (which I need to try) and shit. I don't want to insult you by comparing every aspect of your game to some other game, as if said other game is the standard (it's not), so I'll compare the rank to a game you've probably never heard of instead.

There's this little shoot-em-up called Battle Garegga.  It's very Japanese, as shmups are wont to be.  Notice the terrible romanization: Garegga really means Garage.  Anyways, Garegga is a good shmup, with some really great music.  It also implements a system of scaling difficulty, called 'rank' by the people who play it.  Garegga's rank, however, is completely obscured and invisible to players.  If you aren't told about it, you won't know it's there.  And it scales difficulty up for everything - firing a shot (and it differs for specific types of shots; if you pick a ship with piercing, it goes up way faster), picking up powerups or score items, etc.  If you don't know about it, you'll do fine until stage 5 of 7, at which point you'll start dying horribly.  The actual way to play the game is very interesting.  Since the only way to decrease rank is by dying, since you lose more rank the fewer lives you have when you die, and since you get a life every million points, you have to do well at the scoring system to get extra lives, to die, to keep rank down.  If you're good you can even time your suicides, which gives you extra bombs and damages everything on screen.  Rank is so important in this game that it's almost impossible to beat it on one life; the one guy who did made a video of it and distributed it online, as if it was one of those insane high-score runs.  Unfortunately, the main way people learned about rank was through lots and lots of experience, and romhacking.  Which is why I never really played the game, because seriously, hug that.

This is a very roundabout way of saying thank you so much for making AIP and the ways to manipulate it visible.  Best decision you made in regard to this game, bar none.

I have more things to comment on, but they're a lot shorter than that, so let's get some bullet points up in here.

-Scouting is kinda bad in this game.  Early game, you can only ever scout like two planets beyond your borders with mk i scouts (unless I'm missing something; I've just been sending groups of 5+ scouts on suicide runs).  When you get some psyite, then you just make a spire scoutship and run the thing through 10-20 planets at once, then repair it, then do it again until you've uncovered the whole map.  I'm usually very adamant about playing in fog, but the later planets don't ever do anything worth keeping an eye on in this game; only alerted planets do.  So you just have to know whether they have stuff you want to capture.  Since intelligence is mostly a one-off thing, I just play with fog off.

-There's a lot of ships in this game.  I mean a lot.  Most of them are kinda redundant: take the cutlass vs. the vampire claw vs. the viral shredder vs. the blade spawner for the hell of it.  It would be a terrible state of affairs if which ones you get weren't entirely randomized.  As it stands, I can't tell whether it's still a bad thing to have so many ships with minor distinctions from each other in this game, or whether the randomization makes it not matter.  Instead I'll just ask, is there any way to stop some specific ships from appearing in the map select?  Without turning off whole classes of ships in the menu, I mean.

-Hybrids are jerks.

-The neinzul viral clusters seem kinda silly.  If you have riot ships they die, if you don't they take a while killing your fleet, only to spawn a thousand of them, which then can slaughter every planet you own if you don't have flak guns or lightning rods set up at wormhole exits.  I guess attritioners would work too, although since they aggro the entire planet I haven't used them much.

-Also jerks: spire blade spawners before the patch.  Seriously, those things were mk. i or ii ion cannons, and there were several per planet, including next to my homeworld.  Once I found out that they were nerfed (the performance improvements helped too), I was kinda forced to update, which I'd put off thanks to the broken mac updater.  Definitely recommending you push that update out asap.

-Is there any way to delete priority tags entirely from a planet in galaxy view?

-Golems are a lot of trouble.  Their self-attrition is very annoying, made more so by the fact that, once I had more than one, the only one my engineers would autoheal was the cursed golem, and not my armored, or my botnets.  Had to manually do that.  Since they would also clear planets just by existing, I didn't feel like I was getting enough depth for my trouble.  I've turned them off since...

-Do Spire Civilian Leaders actually do anything if you capture them?  The -3 they're supposed to give you every hour doesn't show up in the list with all the +1s.

-Games take so long it's way too easy to restart them with different settings.  I don't think I've played past 10 planets in a single game so far. :(  Hopefully my current game will change that; I have a good feeling about it.

If you actually read all that, then thanks.

Offline x4000

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 02:35:07 pm »
Cheers!  Thanks for the thoughts and questions. :)

A few notes back:

- Glad you like the AIP mechanics, it's definitely a favorite around here.  I'd not encountered any "rank" mechanics in other games before, so it was something that I put in to address the sort of game flow that I wanted to have.  Then it wound up becoming the central feature of the game, that all others orbit around.  Who knew!

- In terms of scouting, you're actually not supposed to be able to get any further than that with just the mark I scouts.  Otherwise, there would be no point to getting higher-level scouts.  Normally in a game you have the tradeoff of having limited scouting distance or spending knowledge to get higher-level scouts.  Or spending knowledge on scout starships, which give you counter-sniper functionality as well as not being weak to counter-spies, but without as high of range as regular scouts.  And more cost.  The spirecraft scouts are pretty new, and really are a side thing.  Anyway, the scouting is a major part of the game and most people seem to think it's done well, but it's very different from other games, so if you try to do it like AOEIII or similar then it really won't work, you're right.

- If you think the blade spawner and cutlasses and vampires are similar, you haven't played with them much. ;)  You're right that it would be lame if you had all the ships to choose from at once... but that's why the game doesn't do it that way. ;)  Cutlasses and vampires are somewhat similar in terms of the niche that they fill, but the blade spawner is really in a whole different class.  And those viral shredders are in yet another niche.  The cutlasses and vampires were ones that I designed as part of the base game, but the blade spawners and viral shredders were both requests from players.  And all of the above have been heavily rebalanced with the help of players.  You're absolutely right that there are a ton of ships, and some have only subtle differences, but that's true of most RTS games -- when you look at units between different civs, and such.  The benefit here being that there aren't locked civs, but rather more of a freeform mass of options that come through in each game.  For more on why I think this variety is so important to the game: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Design_Complexity#Why_Does_The_Game_Force_Variety_On_The_Player.3F

- Hybrids are definitely jerks.  That's basically their job description. :)

- Golems are definitely a bit uneven.  We've been round and round on them with players in terms of trying to get the right balance without making them useless or exploitable via certain playstyles.  They're at a pretty good state overall at the moment, but I'm still not in love with them.  They can be good in a pinch, but overall they aren't as exciting as some other parts of the game.

- So far as I know, Spire Civilian Leaders are working fine.  However, when captured their timer changes, so it will be every 1 hour from when you capture them.  So you'll get a bunch of -1s for a while, then a -3 on every hour anniversary of the others' capture.

- Games definitely do take a while.  If you want faster games, you can always play on faster combat styles, or with positive handicaps for you and the AI, or on maps in the 30-50 planet range (if you go under or over that, the game tends to take longer).  Personally I prefer 80 planet maps, but a lot of folks seem to prefer fewer.  I will say that if you're stopping after 10 planets, you're missing some of the most interesting parts of the game.  Trying to break through to the AI's home planets in the late game, and then them slipping stuff through to your planets in the late game, can be wicked stressful and is almost like a whole different game.  Or a different phase of the same game, anyway: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Choosing_A_Difficulty_Level#Like_Chess.2C_A_Game_Of_AI_War_Has_Three_Abstract_.22Phases.22  But you're in good company with not finishing a game for a while, so no worries there. One forum regular took a year and a half to win his first game! ;)

Anyway, glad you're enjoying the game so well, and welcome to the forums!
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Offline dotjd

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 03:42:25 pm »
I didn't mean to imply that blade spawners were the same thing; I guess my "for the hell of it" after the list wasn't clear enough.  But the blades it spawns are ostensibly melee in flavor, and more importantly (I'm pretty sure that) they go through forcefields, which seems to be a prime feature of melee ships.  It was a 'for the hell of it' inclusion. >_>

re: scouts, I haven't ever actually spent the knowledge on mk. ii scouts, so I figured that they would maybe go one planet further?  But then I read the spirecraft scout description, and decided to try using it as a mobile scout because it told me not to.  The attrition time didn't seem that bad...  It worked wonderfully.  Only time I lost one was when there was a forcefield over a wormhole and I wasn't paying attention, so it just sat there.  Also, I've been playing on 80-planet maps since that was what the wiki seemed to favor.

And ok, I'll keep an eye out for the spire civilian leader messages then.  Good to know.

Thanks!

Offline x4000

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 03:47:19 pm »
I didn't mean to imply that blade spawners were the same thing; I guess my "for the hell of it" after the list wasn't clear enough.  But the blades it spawns are ostensibly melee in flavor, and more importantly (I'm pretty sure that) they go through forcefields, which seems to be a prime feature of melee ships.  It was a 'for the hell of it' inclusion. >_>

Gotcha, sorry, was reading fast.  One thing to note about melee ships being immune to forcefields is that that's pretty much required in order for them to be able to deal damage to stuff under forcefields.  Otherwise they stick up against the forcefield, and I haven't put any code in for them to be able to damage it that way (which would be some "fun" in the DF sense). ;)

re: scouts, I haven't ever actually spent the knowledge on mk. ii scouts, so I figured that they would maybe go one planet further?  But then I read the spirecraft scout description, and decided to try using it as a mobile scout because it told me not to.  The attrition time didn't seem that bad...  It worked wonderfully.  Only time I lost one was when there was a forcefield over a wormhole and I wasn't paying attention, so it just sat there.  Also, I've been playing on 80-planet maps since that was what the wiki seemed to favor.

Yeah, spirecraft scouts pretty well obviate the need for traditional scouting, that's true.  In terms of the mark II scouts, they get a couple of planets further... it really varies by map how much further.  And it varies based on how you group your scouts.  Mark III then get even further, but still not all that greatly far -- but you get mark IV for free with the mark III.  Then it becomes a waiting game while the slower mark IV moves around the map, and you want to path it efficiently.  But all those mark I-IIIs are useful for shorter legs still, and for setting up permanent eyes, etc.

And ok, I'll keep an eye out for the spire civilian leader messages then.  Good to know.

Thanks!

You bet!
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Offline Philo

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 08:50:37 pm »
One thing I want to say is I think after playing around more now I think the Hard golems are well balanced imo. If you're playing with the easy golems then it's supposed to be easy. The Regen Golem is way too weak as it is now though, either have him not lose health so fast or make repairing the golem 1/4 as expensive to really make using it a viable option. Other than they're all good.

As for scouting, it's really good right now imo. Maybe make the spire scoutship only available from more rare minerals though? I've never used one though but I will have to try if it is actually that effective in scouting the whole galaxy.

The unit classes also all differ enough to be there, you'll see once you play the game more.

And also, you're supposed to power down your golems when not using them, that's when they won't lose any health.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 09:04:04 pm »
As far as scouts go, I've been able to push mk1 scouts through 2-3 planets on a good day, but yeah, usually not more than that.  mk2 scouts, on the other hand, especially if you sent the full cap of them along with any extra mk1 scouts you have laying around using group move, can get significantly farther, and the advantage they have over the spirecraft ones is that you can leave one parked in any arbitrary enemy system to monitor ships moving around (very useful when the threat is a few thousand ships and you need to know where it's coming from before it's in the system next to yours).

A lot of the ship types are somewhat similar, to some extent, but you very rarely end up with near-duplicates in the same game because of the sheer number of unit types, and after playing with them a few times you start to pick up on how they might seem kind of like the same thing but are actually useful in very, very different situations.  Autobombs and nanoswarms both are cheap self-destructing ships that you can crank out basically like bullets that cost resources to fire, except one of them does damage and the other mainly causes status effects.  Cutlasses damage themselves when they attack, while vampires heal themselves, and viral shredders duplicate themselves, and their movement speeds and dps vary enough that what they're best suited for varies a pretty decent amount.  You can use them as drop-in replacements for each other, but they're not at their most effective that way.

Deleting priority tags: Select a tag from the bar on the left (any one, doesn't matter which), and then right click the system you want to remove it from.

Golem self-attritioning stops when they're in low power mode, so shut them down when you're not actively using them if you aren't already doing that.  Saves a whole lot of resources.  If you want your engineers to always automatically repair them no matter what, go into the controls menu ("CTRLS" or whatever the button in the bottom left corner is labeled) and raise the number in the box for "engineers won't auto-assist with large projects" to some ridiculous number.  They won't automatically repair or help build anything that costs more than that amount of metal/crystal per second.  The default is 400, I think, and golems generally cost much more than that, along with a few other things like my mercenary bombers they refuse to repair because they cost 480/s.

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 03:31:29 am »
- Glad you like the AIP mechanics, it's definitely a favorite around here.  I'd not encountered any "rank" mechanics in other games before, so it was something that I put in to address the sort of game flow that I wanted to have.  Then it wound up becoming the central feature of the game, that all others orbit around.  Who knew!

You might have encountered it and just not noticed. :) Have you played Kid Icarus for NES? It has a secret rank statistic referred to as "skill" by hackers. The player can level up in that game by entering specific chambers and collecting a new type of arrow, but the chambers are empty if the player's skill isn't high enough. Skill is gained by killing enemies, collecting hearts or mallets, and entering chambers, and skill is lost by shooting arrows and taking damage. Keeping that information from the player is pretty unfortunate, in my opinion, since if you don't know you're penalized for shooting arrows, why not just shoot them all the time? :P
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 03:42:57 am »
Keeping that information from the player is pretty unfortunate, in my opinion, since if you don't know you're penalized for shooting arrows, why not just shoot them all the time? :P

Well then.  I never knew that.  That's certainly kind of a dick move on their part.

Offline x4000

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 08:57:47 am »
- Glad you like the AIP mechanics, it's definitely a favorite around here.  I'd not encountered any "rank" mechanics in other games before, so it was something that I put in to address the sort of game flow that I wanted to have.  Then it wound up becoming the central feature of the game, that all others orbit around.  Who knew!

You might have encountered it and just not noticed. :) Have you played Kid Icarus for NES? It has a secret rank statistic referred to as "skill" by hackers. The player can level up in that game by entering specific chambers and collecting a new type of arrow, but the chambers are empty if the player's skill isn't high enough. Skill is gained by killing enemies, collecting hearts or mallets, and entering chambers, and skill is lost by shooting arrows and taking damage. Keeping that information from the player is pretty unfortunate, in my opinion, since if you don't know you're penalized for shooting arrows, why not just shoot them all the time? :P

Wow, yeah, I never knew any of that.  I never played a substantial amount of Kid Icarus, though, because I just never found it that fun.
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Offline dotjd

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 10:38:21 pm »
One thing I want to say is I think after playing around more now I think the Hard golems are well balanced imo. If you're playing with the easy golems then it's supposed to be easy.

I was playing with hard golems. >_>  Didn't know about powering them down though.  And hard spirecraft.  And I got a couple missions into the fallen spire campaign.  On difficulty 7.  While it was going swimmingly, everything I've read suggests that it would have gone south soon enough.  eh.

Nalgas: can you provide examples of how you would use claws, cutlasses, or shredders differently?  I can't see it.  Right now I'm thinking that yeah, some would be better in some situations than others (claws seem better for long battles, blades for short ones where they have time to regen after, shredders eat power like mad), but given that you'll probably only have one or the other, what I've found is that the choice is usually just whether to use them at all.  Although I guess you'd try to farm shredders on easy stuff.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 11:26:19 pm »
Nalgas: can you provide examples of how you would use claws, cutlasses, or shredders differently?  I can't see it.  Right now I'm thinking that yeah, some would be better in some situations than others (claws seem better for long battles, blades for short ones where they have time to regen after, shredders eat power like mad), but given that you'll probably only have one or the other, what I've found is that the choice is usually just whether to use them at all.  Although I guess you'd try to farm shredders on easy stuff.

I don't mean it quite so much that you'd use them for dramatically different things if you happened to have all three in the same game as that if you had one of them in one game and a second in the next, it would influence how you end up playing to some extent.

I've found viral shredders to be mostly useful defensively in my experience, but they can be very useful for that.  You can park them over a wormhole with some turrets and stuff to cover their weaknesses, and they will win every fight until at least mid-game coming out with more of them than you started with.  Not so much when you bring them along for an attack.  They do have higher base damage than cutlasses, but they have zero bonuses against anything.

Vampire claws have a huge speed advantage over the other two, plus missile immunity, plus a good set of damage bonuses, which makes them strong in a rather different set of situations, and the healing doesn't suck.  Does suck.  Whatever.  Heh.

Cutlasses have the lowest base damage, but they have an entirely different set of bonuses, and they have a completely different damage type from the other two that far fewer things are immune to, so while they may not do as much raw damage sometimes, they can attack a lot of things the other two can't, while still getting to ignore force fields.  You also get a crapload of them, and their armor makes them a bit sturdier, too.

Offline dotjd

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 02:27:31 pm »
John
ARE YOU lovably SERIOUS
5:57 PM
wow
5:58 PM
ok so several random factors in the game combined to create a situation i have absolutely no regret for losing to
so there's this big npc ship called a devourer golem, that's huge, invincible, and roams around the galaxy eating any normal ships it encounters
5:59 PM
and that decided to take a direct route to my homeworld
6:00 PM
one planet out, i have this big, pretty successful blockade set up with a hundred and fifty turrets
now the game had been forecasting this big wave called an exogalactic wave for the past 20 minutes, and that decided to strike at that system
6:02 PM
but right before that, a smaller spur-of-the-moment wave smashed into my defenses and died, but managed to take down some
before i could repair them, the exo wave hit and overran them
6:03 PM
and the devourer golem was making a beeline for my home system and was in the system, so i just said 'ok, i'll retake the system later'
so then the golem enters my home system, followed by exactly one ship
6:05 PM
i think ok, i won't reinforce the system, it's only one ship
6:07 PM
then the AI detontes an emp warhead in my home system
I didn't even know they had warheads, i thought those were human-only
so everything in the system that isn't immune to emp is down for 30 seconds
6:08 PM
and guess what, that one ship is immune
so it runs straight to my hq and kills it
what the hug is that shit
that's like 20 random factors (golem, several waves at once, warheads, all this shit) deciding to screw me at once
6:09 PM
ah well, at least the autosave is far enough back to add another 30 turrets to the blockade
6:10 PM
now that i think about it, there were hybrid hives (these jackass fast and strong little buggers, that were apparently the response to player complaints that the ai was not aggressive enough.  they spawn frequently and in groups, and then either spawn or recruit a bunch of ships to lead waves by themselves) in the blockade system so that makes 3+ waves that hit it at once
6:15 PM
60 turrets
6:16 PM
i should look up the differences between the hybrid hive waves and normal waves
6:19 PM
besides the presence of the hybrids
oh wow
6:28 PM
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Hybrid_Hives
they do all sorts of things to screw players over
i've got to murder nearby hive spawners like i murder warp gates
6:29 PM
so i found what spawned the emp warhead
8:43 PM
another random npc that isn't even allied with the main ai
so it wasn't a brilliant strategy, just ridiculous luck

:3

Since then, I've tried playing a game with the mad bomber ai.  That didn't work out so well either.

Offline x4000

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 02:34:59 pm »
Hahaha, that's great. :)

Yeah, it was generally just rotten luck there... but the game is set up to create situations like that if you aren't careful.

A few things that you may or may not know already:

1. Just steer clear of the devourer golem.  It won't hurt your home command station, but it will eat your turrets and fleet for lunch.  So it can't kill you, but it can lose you the game indirectly.  On the other hand, if it's on a planet that is having a big wave from the AI come in, that can be GREAT news for you, if you can stay away from it, because it can eat the whole wave of the AI.

2. For the hybrid hives, that wasn't luck that they showed up when they did -- they wait until they see an opening, and then they exploit it.  They're sitting out there like a pack of raptors, and then when you're already sort of in trouble they come in for the kill.  It will happen again and again if you're not careful with keeping them in check!

3. Yeah, the EMP warhead was bad luck.  So far as I know... Keith might have changed something. :)

4. The more minor factions you play with, the more your chances of "insane bad luck" go up.  A lot of the minor factions look at your local situation the same as the AI does, and they'll take advantage when they see an opening.  When you have multiple such factions all waiting for an opening... such as you getting battered a small bit by one wave and having a devourer golem eating some of your other stuff... well, stuff hits the fan pretty fast all of a sudden.

That was a great read, though -- thanks for posting it. :)
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Offline dotjd

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 01:49:54 pm »
do you want to capture this planet yes/no

Offline Orelius

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Re: Just bought the game; some questions and thoughts
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2011, 02:40:34 pm »
Clumping up of things like that tends to happen when you're playing with less than 40ish planets :).