Author Topic: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?  (Read 4354 times)

Offline Cinth

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2012, 02:33:28 pm »
That reminds me... I need to set up 8 champs with the nano reclaimer smalls with and MRS and a few engi IIIs on a deep strike route to see how big of a free fleet I can make
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 09:21:18 pm »
That reminds me... I need to set up 8 champs with the nano reclaimer smalls with and MRS and a few engi IIIs on a deep strike route to see how big of a free fleet I can make
Tried that, and was not impressed with the results.  A Neinzul Shadow Cruiser has 6 slots, and Nanosubverters Mk IV do 24,000 damage every 4 second (6000 DPS).
Total, then, after three nebulas and spending 9 points unlocking Nanosubverter IVs, a Neinzul Cruiser can do 144,000 reclamation damage every 4 seconds (36,000 DPS).
A Mk I Leech Starship has 60,000 x 3 shots every 4 seconds, for 45,000 DPS.  A cap (3) is 135,000 DPS.
8 Champions rigged this way can do 288,000 DPS.  A cap of Mk II Leech Starships (3) can do 270,000 DPS.

I was disappointed, mostly because the Vulture, Impulse Reaction Emitter, Heat Beam, Acid Sprayer, and Paralyzer modules are all significantly better than their equivalent ships.  But the fully decked out Leech Champion is actually worse than a single, free, base starship.

Not sure what the Human Cruiser's slots are, since I've still never managed to unlock one :/  It would require 21 slots to match the Mk I Leech Starships, however.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2012, 09:26:17 pm »
Interesting.  I based the nanosubverter off the parasite fleet ship, didn't think to look at the leech starship's numbers.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 10:25:02 pm »
Interesting.  I based the nanosubverter off the parasite fleet ship, didn't think to look at the leech starship's numbers.
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I never thought to compare it to the Parasite.  I guess that would be a better comparison, since the others are all fleetships...
Let's see here.
A champion with 6 Mk IVs is 36,000 DPS, which falls between the Mk I and Mk II parasites (24,500 and 44,000 DPS respectively).
The 8 Champion fleet of 288,000 DPS is then a bit more than the full Mk I - Mk V set of Parasites (255,000 DPS; 459,000 DPS if you include Mercs, 399,000 DPS without the Mk Vs - aka, what the player can generally rely on getting).

Put in comparison that way, the modules suddenly look much better.
Hmm.
Need to think about this one some more.

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 02:59:34 am »

Do sane people play this game?

Hehe, I don't think so ;P
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 09:58:09 am »
Interesting.  I based the nanosubverter off the parasite fleet ship, didn't think to look at the leech starship's numbers.
.
..
...
I never thought to compare it to the Parasite.  I guess that would be a better comparison, since the others are all fleetships...
Let's see here.
A champion with 6 Mk IVs is 36,000 DPS, which falls between the Mk I and Mk II parasites (24,500 and 44,000 DPS respectively).
The 8 Champion fleet of 288,000 DPS is then a bit more than the full Mk I - Mk V set of Parasites (255,000 DPS; 459,000 DPS if you include Mercs, 399,000 DPS without the Mk Vs - aka, what the player can generally rely on getting).

Put in comparison that way, the modules suddenly look much better.
Hmm.
Need to think about this one some more.
Though it does beg the question: why pick (initial homeworld pick or ARS hack-or-not-to-hack) parasite fleet ships when leech starships put out that much reclamation damage?  I can see the scandalous tabloid headline now: Leech Starship Overpowered?!?
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 10:10:49 am »
Though it does beg the question: why pick (initial homeworld pick or ARS hack-or-not-to-hack) parasite fleet ships when leech starships put out that much reclamation damage?  I can see the scandalous tabloid headline now: Leech Starship Overpowered?!?

That's certainly the vibe I'm getting currently, Leech Starships can do pretty much all the reclamation you want even at mk1. 

Offline Nodor

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 10:57:54 am »
The fleet starships do damage. Parasites tag targets.  Both is MUCH better.

When I pair them, I am usually at cap for a ship type after an incoming wave. 

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 11:24:16 am »
I personally think Leech Starships are amazing.  In my current 9/9, I've gathered close to 40 Mark IVs with them with Mark I Leeches in 3 hours, and thanks to Shield Bearers, I've been able to keep my captured ships alive a long time.  And that's just incidental captures.  I'm not even trying to farm.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 01:54:31 pm »
Interesting.  I based the nanosubverter off the parasite fleet ship, didn't think to look at the leech starship's numbers.
.
..
...
I never thought to compare it to the Parasite.  I guess that would be a better comparison, since the others are all fleetships...
Let's see here.
A champion with 6 Mk IVs is 36,000 DPS, which falls between the Mk I and Mk II parasites (24,500 and 44,000 DPS respectively).
The 8 Champion fleet of 288,000 DPS is then a bit more than the full Mk I - Mk V set of Parasites (255,000 DPS; 459,000 DPS if you include Mercs, 399,000 DPS without the Mk Vs - aka, what the player can generally rely on getting).

Put in comparison that way, the modules suddenly look much better.
Hmm.
Need to think about this one some more.
Though it does beg the question: why pick (initial homeworld pick or ARS hack-or-not-to-hack) parasite fleet ships when leech starships put out that much reclamation damage?  I can see the scandalous tabloid headline now: Leech Starship Overpowered?!?
Turns out I forgot all about the mark-based invisible reclamation damage multiplier.
After a bit more math (necessary) and a bit more thinking (optional), I suspect the problem is that a Champion decked out for full Leech-ness is suboptimal for the task.
36,000 DPS is terrible; but assuming that Mk IV nanosubverters are shooting at a Mk IV level, that works out to 288,000 DPS of "reclamation credit" on another Mk IV ship.  Doubling for each lower mark the target is.  But doing enough real damage to actually kill something takes too long with pure Nanosubverters equipped.  A mix would be needed, of Nanosubverters and something else lethal.

However, at that point, targetting becomes an issue.  Anything less that the critical threshold of reclamation damage (50% of target's max HP, right?) is wasted.  So the Nanosubverters would need to fire first, and enough of them on a single target, to hit the critical point before real weapons complete the kill.

And I think that's when Leech Starships are likely so much better and reclaiming things than Parasites.  When a Leech starship shoots something, it does 60,000 x 3 damage to it = 180,000 real damage and 180,000 * (8, 4, 2, 1) reclamation damage (vs Mk I, II, III, IV).  180,000 damage is enough to kill outright any Mk I triangle ship, resulting in an instant reclaim of that target.  Even Mk I Leech shooting a Mk III triangle ship will do 360,000 reclamation damage, which is more than 50% of the Mk III's max HP right there.
On the other hand, the parasites, a full cap of MK I parasites (49) does 196,000 real damage (but half the firing rate of Leech starships means half the DPS).  That 196,000 damage is almost certainly going to be spread out amongst many AI ships.  Mk I vs Mk I, anything over 16 AI targets means that the reclamation damage level would still be insufficient to reclaim anything.  Considering the total DPS of the parasites is so low, other ships would presumably be present to do the actual killing - or in the case of more than 16 AI targets, the kill-stealing, preventing reclamation from occuring.

And that would seem to be the crux of the matter in comparing reclamation weapons:  how likely is it to get to the critical point before something else kills the target?  With Leech starships, the answer is "Almost always".  With parasites, the answer is "Usually not."  With a Leech-y Champion as it stands, the answer is "not really."  I tried out a 50% Nanosubverters plus 50% Doom Accelerators or 50% Needlers or 50% Acid Jets as my Champion, then went clearing out reinforcements in a few Mk III systems.  I was consistantly reclaiming Laser Gatlings or Deflector Drones.  I was sometimes reclaiming fighters.  I was not reclaiming much of anything else, even other triangle ships.  Overall, each trial reclaimed maybe 20 out of 250-300 ships.

I think that if the Nanosubverters were to be changed, one possible change might be to increase the per-shot damage significantly, while slowing the firing rate to match.  That would keep the DPS the same, but make it more likely that each individual shot would reclaim something.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 02:11:40 pm »
@Toranth: you may not be aware of this change from 5.031:

Quote
* Now when a unit dies while under the influence of a parasite infestation ("reclamation damage"), those parasites will behave far more efficiently:
** If there are enough of them on the ship to take it over (that is, reclamation damage is >= half the ship's max health) then enough will remain to perform the takeover.
** Any remaining parasites (which means all of them, if there aren't enough to take the dying ship over) will spread to nearby (within 2000 range units) valid targets that have not been fully infested.
** The end result is that while the exact same amount of reclamation damage is being done, the efficiency of it actually doing something in condensed fighting is way more satisfactory, particularly towards the end as all the partially-reclaimed ships die off and the parasites all pile up on the survivors.
*** In fact, it's possible that reclamators are now back to being OP, but not nearly as much as in the days when a single leech-starship salvo could "tag" 40 ships for guarunteed reclamation.

I think that impacts some of your conclusions :)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 02:12:06 pm »
(Trimmed long quote)

Are you remembering to factor in the "reclaim damage spread on death" mechanic that was added a while back? I'm not sure the exact details, but I think it makes it such that ships that die with <50% reclaim damage / HP ratio don't have all those points wasted (those points "spread out" to nearby ships), and that ships that die with >50% reclaim damage / HP ratio also don't have all those points past 50% wasted (The reclaim damage minus the 50% needed to trigger the reclaim will spread to nearby ships).

It's a rather interesting solution to the "reclaim damage != exactly 50% leaves some wasted" problem.

EDIT: Ninja'd ;)

Offline Toranth

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 02:54:29 pm »
@Toranth: you may not be aware of this change from 5.031:

Quote
* Now when a unit dies while under the influence of a parasite infestation ("reclamation damage"), those parasites will behave far more efficiently:
** If there are enough of them on the ship to take it over (that is, reclamation damage is >= half the ship's max health) then enough will remain to perform the takeover.
** Any remaining parasites (which means all of them, if there aren't enough to take the dying ship over) will spread to nearby (within 2000 range units) valid targets that have not been fully infested.
** The end result is that while the exact same amount of reclamation damage is being done, the efficiency of it actually doing something in condensed fighting is way more satisfactory, particularly towards the end as all the partially-reclaimed ships die off and the parasites all pile up on the survivors.
*** In fact, it's possible that reclamators are now back to being OP, but not nearly as much as in the days when a single leech-starship salvo could "tag" 40 ships for guarunteed reclamation.

I think that impacts some of your conclusions :)
I had remembered there was a change, but I didn't remember it correctly.  I thought it was only the "All damage past what was needed jumped", I didn't realize the other 'wasted' portion jumped as well.  Thank you for reminding me, and that indeed does change things.
You see, now I'm just confused.  There shouldn't have been any lost reclamation damage, then, but even a 100% Nanosubverter Champion was not reclaiming much, and that slowly.

Edit:  Went back, and re-experimented again.  I was using the Champion in various load-outs to clear out reinforcements from previously neutered systems.  So, the Champion was only facing groups of 10-20 ships at a time.  And that might be small enough that even with bouncing parasites, only one or two ships would be reclaimed.  Most of the actual damage being done was by the Champion's main gun, which isn't reclamation damage.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 03:08:17 pm »
Most of the actual damage being done was by the Champion's main gun, which isn't reclamation damage.
Yea, a Frigate's main gun is about 18x more powerful than a mkI light-module, and so on.

In general I think reclamation efforts are more efficient currently if it's a fairly sustained engagement where the parasites have time to really pile up the nanites, and the targets are all in bouncing range.

The bouncing just makes sure you basically never waste much reclamation damage.  You might only get one ship, but it's not because the targeting choices hit a bunch of things for 49%-reclaim.
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: Is there a way to wake all ships on a planet on purpose?
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 03:43:12 pm »
Yea, a Frigate's main gun is about 18x more powerful than a mkI light-module, and so on.

In general I think reclamation efforts are more efficient currently if it's a fairly sustained engagement where the parasites have time to really pile up the nanites, and the targets are all in bouncing range.

The bouncing just makes sure you basically never waste much reclamation damage.  You might only get one ship, but it's not because the targeting choices hit a bunch of things for 49%-reclaim.

For me it feels that reclaimers are a bit too powerful in all situations right now, but since reclamation (for sane people  :D) is hardly a gamebreaker, maybe it's fine... But the parasite fleetships are definitely overshadowed by the Leech Starship. I mean, you send a ball of ships through a wormhole and you instantly get a bunch of reclamations, even on mk4's. The only things that don't get reclaimed are the ones that get killed by artillery at long range. All of this with just the 3 Leeches. The extra parasites are just unnecessary, though Nanoswarms have other uses and Tele-Leeches are pretty awful in general (which is a shame  :) )