Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?

[Diazo]

However, end-game means that you are balancing for fighting Mk III/IV starships, not Mk I starships like in the early-mid game.

That means a higher damage output somehow.

I'm still thinking 12million per 20 seconds is about right. Dangerous in the early-mid game and there's enough other stuff on the Core/Homeworlds that the player probably can't make a bee-line for it meaning it stays alive long enough to hurt in the end-game.

D.

[Tridus]

No, that's the triangle ships. The Ion Eye takes out 16 ships every 4 seconds. A cap is 96. Doesn't take long.

Ion Cannons take 96 seconds, which is why nobody really worries about them.

The Ion eye is not at all like an Ion cannon on so many levels.

It cannot spawn on AI Homeworlds. Only one can spawn. It does not act if certain conditions are met. ... ... ...


How does the comparison between the ion eye and the OMD really work again?

Because the entire point was to buff the OMD into something that actually matters, and so comparing it to Ion Cannons (another thing that doesn't matter very much) really doesn't work either?

I honestly don't care in the slightest when I see Ion Cannons. If anything, it's nice to capture them and then scrap them for the resources. The goal of the original requests was to buff the OMD, and putting it at the same level as the Ion Cannons that I ignore really isn't doing that. Comparatively, it's really, really painful to pretend the Ion Eye isn't there and zerg a system blindly.

[Tridus]

However, end-game means that you are balancing for fighting Mk III/IV starships, not Mk I starships like in the early-mid game.

That means a higher damage output somehow.

I'm still thinking 12million per 20 seconds is about right. Dangerous in the early-mid game and there's enough other stuff on the Core/Homeworlds that the player probably can't make a bee-line for it meaning it stays alive long enough to hurt in the end-game.

D.

Probably worth trying in a patch and seeing how it feels, yeah.

[TechSY730]

Different marks of OMDs, with rules in place that don't allow higher marks on lower leveled worlds or too close to the human homeworlds, and not allowing multiple marks to be on the same planet?

Still wouldn't solve the quagmire if it happens on a core world, yet alone a AI HW world.

[Being end game in of itself doesn't enable a magic wand that gives the player new tactical options between mid and late game]

True, but all of the stuff you have availible to you through (potential) unlocks and capturables you encountered/did along the way to get to the late game sure does open up new tactical options.

Not saying that "over seeding if global effects to grind levels" wouldn't be a possible issue (in fact, it already is currently), but I am saying that unless you were not going for what is availible to you through the course of the game, one would have more tactical options than is availible in the early-mid game.

[chemical_art]

but I am saying that unless you were not going for what is availible to you through the course of the game, one would have more tactical options than is availible in the early-mid game.

I'm going to disagree. Tactically, my options don't change much from mid to late game. The strength of those options increase, but the tactics don't change.

Meaning between mid to late game, if I manage to acquire a new golem or ARS, odds are it already fits into existing tactical options. And if it manages to do open new tactical options, it lacks enough strength to help with the AI HW attack.

A key problem with AI HW defense its defenses are at a strength to knock down an "all out" specialization of a tactic, and the result if a new option is found in the late game, it is impossible to use that option where it matters because the AI is prepared as if you had that option (and specialized in it) from early game.

[chemical_art]

However, end-game means that you are balancing for fighting Mk III/IV starships, not Mk I starships like in the early-mid game.

That means a higher damage output somehow.

In late game, you are already dealing with dozens of new restrictions.

[Typing out my AI HW defense thread]

[Toranth]

I don't know why anyone would think Ion cannons are rare.  I just started and counted a few 100 system games.
None of the Mk I worlds adjacent to the Human HW had any Ion Cannons.
85% of other systems had at least 1 Ion Cannon.
65% of non-Core+ systems had 2 or more.
20% of non-Core+ systems had 3 or more.
Core and HW systems had at least 4, and as many as 6.

In all three games, there were NO OMDs on any non-Core, non-HW system.  1 each for those.  Peacemaker aside, under normal circumstances, OMDs are only a concern for late game and really rare random systems, while Ion Cannons are very common.

I'm still thinking 12million per 20 seconds is about right. Dangerous in the early-mid game and there's enough other stuff on the Core/Homeworlds that the player probably can't make a bee-line for it meaning it stays alive long enough to hurt in the end-game.

12 million damage is enough to be noticable for low-mark Starships, yes.  But it's so very little against Mk IV+, which will usually have 40,000,000 HP up to 128,000,000 for the Mk IV Zenith.  That's not even 10% damage per 20 seconds.  I'm far more frightened of the chance that a Mk IV Arachnid Guardpost will be within range of my entry wormhole - it'd be 15 times the damage for that same interval, and those spawn all over the place.
The OMD is a defensive Super Weapon and really should be treated as such.


Really, instead of gutting the damage again, why not remove the Radar Damping immunity?  That makes it possible to use Raid Starships again, even on worlds with Tachyon Subcommanders.  Maybe also get rid of the Nuke immunity, just to give a Last Resort counter - if you REALLY want that OMD gone, then EMP or Nuke it and pay through the nose in AIP for the convenience.

Also, fix Peacemaker to not get 2 per system - 1 is more than enough now.

[chemical_art]

12 million damage is enough to be noticable for low-mark Starships, yes.  But it's so very little against Mk IV+, which will usually have 40,000,000 HP up to 128,000,000 for the Mk IV Zenith.  That's not even 10% damage per 20 seconds.  I'm far more frightened of the chance that a Mk IV Arachnid Guardpost will be within range of my entry wormhole - it'd be 15 times the damage for that same interval, and those spawn all over the place.
The OMD is a defensive Super Weapon and really should be treated as such.

MK IV starships cost over a million M+C per cap. And require an adv constructor. That's a bloody large investment. I wish I could say I'd shudder over the thought of a global defense that could two shot such an investment, but I wouldn't. I'd savescum to avoid it. If I couldn't avoid it, I'd quit in frustration.

[TechSY730]

By the way, chemical_art's new post about homeworld defenses (particularly how he has felt they have gotten "out of hand") has been posted.
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13588.0.html

[Tridus]

12 million damage is enough to be noticable for low-mark Starships, yes.  But it's so very little against Mk IV+, which will usually have 40,000,000 HP up to 128,000,000 for the Mk IV Zenith.  That's not even 10% damage per 20 seconds.  I'm far more frightened of the chance that a Mk IV Arachnid Guardpost will be within range of my entry wormhole - it'd be 15 times the damage for that same interval, and those spawn all over the place.
The OMD is a defensive Super Weapon and really should be treated as such.

MK IV starships cost over a million M+C per cap. And require an adv constructor. That's a bloody large investment. I wish I could say I'd shudder over the thought of a global defense that could two shot such an investment, but I wouldn't. I'd savescum to avoid it. If I couldn't avoid it, I'd quit in frustration.

So then how do you deal with Arachnids, which can flatten those Starships in a tiny fraction of the time that the OMD proposals that you don't like can do it, considering they're a lot more frequent?

I mean at some point you need to meet us somewhere other than "an OMD might kill my Starships at some point and that's bad."

[Toranth]

12 million damage is enough to be noticable for low-mark Starships, yes.  But it's so very little against Mk IV+, which will usually have 40,000,000 HP up to 128,000,000 for the Mk IV Zenith.  That's not even 10% damage per 20 seconds.  I'm far more frightened of the chance that a Mk IV Arachnid Guardpost will be within range of my entry wormhole - it'd be 15 times the damage for that same interval, and those spawn all over the place.
The OMD is a defensive Super Weapon and really should be treated as such.

MK IV starships cost over a million M+C per cap. And require an adv constructor. That's a bloody large investment. I wish I could say I'd shudder over the thought of a global defense that could two shot such an investment, but I wouldn't. I'd savescum to avoid it. If I couldn't avoid it, I'd quit in frustration.

What do you do when you encounter AI Artillery Golems?  They're far more powerful, have more range, and are harder to kill.  How about the Core Arachnid Guardpost?  100,000,000 per shot AND starship swallowing.  Or just Starship Disassemblers in general, for that matter - especially en masse from the Hunter plot.
These are not guaranteed to appear, while the OMD is, but that's no reason the extremely rare OMD shouldn't be powerful enough to be a real concern.  Especially compared to the common Mk I-Mk V Archnid Guardposts that are everywhere.

[chemical_art]

What do you do when you encounter AI Artillery Golems? 


Artillary golems are a threat on offense, not defense. Which means they can be isolated a lot, lot easier despite they having a global effect. Combine this with the nature of defense where there are dozens if not hundreds of targets (turrets, shields) and the threat to starships is a lot smaller.  It is the fact they can always be isolated easy that is the main thing though. Unlike OMD's which when combined with either local (fort) defense or global defenses (brutal posts) can result in them being very hard to isolate.

They're far more powerful, have more range, and are harder to kill.  How about the Core Arachnid Guardpost?  100,000,000 per shot AND starship swallowing.  Or just Starship Disassemblers in general, for that matter - especially en masse from the Hunter plot.

For the guardposts, similar to the artillery golem, they can be isolated easily. In this case since they don't move and their range isn't practically global, unless near a wormhole they can always be moved around. The starships can be used to distract/destroy other threats while isolating the post.

As for the disassemblers, they are more tricky, but can be isolated and just as importantly come with an opportunity cost: If the AI specializes in this anti-starship defense they explicitly, explicitly lose potential defense against fleetships.


These are not guaranteed to appear, while the OMD is, but that's no reason the extremely rare OMD shouldn't be powerful enough to be a real concern.  Especially compared to the common Mk I-Mk V Archnid Guardposts that are everywhere.

Considering OMD's are on almost every core AI world, they are not extremely rare.

[chemical_art]

So then how do you deal with Arachnids, which can flatten those Starships in a tiny fraction of the time that the OMD proposals that you don't like can do it, considering they're a lot more frequent?

I mean at some point you need to meet us somewhere other than "an OMD might kill my Starships at some point and that's bad."

As I explained a little bit more earlier, Arachnids can be moved around and isolated so starships can still participate in planet combat without being mawed. This is not true for OMD's.

[Gudamor]

One way that the OMD could counter a starship fleet's effectiveness without necessarily having a large DPS would be to give it very large Engine Damage. Since starship's engine health doesn't scale with Mark, they remain as threatening end-game as they are early-game.

Fluffwise the description would probably have to change, but one could imagine something like a beefed-up Spider Turret with "projectiles stripped from an iron asteroid."

One drawback with this idea is that the average starship's Engine Health is 100k but the Bomber and Raid starships have 300k and Infinite, respectively- and with their speed they might be able to destroy the OMD before it even got many shots off.

[Bognor]

Another way would be to use an implosion effect that dealt some kind of % damage.

But really, I think Toranth hit the nail on the head:

I just started and counted a few 100 system games. ... In all three games, there were NO OMDs on any non-Core, non-HW system.  Peacemaker aside, under normal circumstances, OMDs are only a concern for late game and really rare random systems ...

(emphasis added)

In other words, there's no need to balance OMDs for the early game.