Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?

[chemical_art]

The damage still sounds a bit low to me for a 20s reload rate. So how about 12 million with a 10 or 15 second reload time. That should still be slow enough to be "reactable" against, or even "brute forceable" against, but still have the DPS to be threatening against a large cluster of higher mark starships.

That's still killing caps of units per minute in a global effect.

[Tridus]

The damage still sounds a bit low to me for a 20s reload rate. So how about 12 million with a 10 or 15 second reload time. That should still be slow enough to be "reactable" against, or even "brute forceable" against, but still have the DPS to be threatening against a large cluster of higher mark starships.

That's still killing caps of units per minute in a global effect.

That's killing 2 ships a minute. Hardly game breaking.

(Incidentally, the Ion Eye can kill a cap of fleetships in 24 seconds.)

[Diazo]

Not a fan of that. Too low, and a 20 second reload is way too low for anything that isn't going to be one shotting stuff.

The problem is that there is only one mark of OMD and it can seed anywhere.

So the player will be attacking the OMD with both an early game fleet and a late game fleet.

You run into a system with an OMD only 3 hops out from your homeworld and you have to take it, so we are in the early game.

There are OMDs on the Core/Homeworlds that you have to deal with (late-game).

How do we make the OMD a threat, but not a stonewall in both these situations?

My answer is high damage on a slow ROF attack. This allows the attack to be high enough damage to be a threat to starships in the late game but a slow enough ROF that you are not wiping an early game starship fleet out in seconds.

If it did not open up too many options for cheesing (notably with transports) I'd suggest an even higher damage with slower ROF attack for the OMD.

If you boost the damage on the 20 second attack you are one-shotting every starship available in the early game and stonewalling the player.

If you lower the damage and increase the attack speed it is now not powerful enough to be a threat against high mark starships in the late game.

D.

[Lord Fiddlemeister]

I don't see the problem of the OMD. If you see one in a system, why send a fleet of starships at it? At the very least you could send a cheap starship in first and rush it afterwards. If you want to capture it, it's supposed to be hard in my opinion. I wouldn't even mind if the OMD would be for starships what an ion cannon is for fleetships (insta-death), though Ion cannons could use a buff.

[TechSY730]

The damage still sounds a bit low to me for a 20s reload rate. So how about 12 million with a 10 or 15 second reload time. That should still be slow enough to be "reactable" against, or even "brute forceable" against, but still have the DPS to be threatening against a large cluster of higher mark starships.

That's still killing caps of units per minute in a global effect.

Which ones, only the 10s variation, or both 10 and 15 seconds.


@Tridus
Um, 2 ships easily covers 1 or more cap of a single starship type. (Most starships have a cap of 2)

[TechSY730]

Or maybe the OMD can become a "marked" unit like ion cannons are, with Dazio's proposal (12M per 20 seconds) being the Mk. II version.

That should help with the early game vs. late game thing.

[chemical_art]

That's killing 2 ships a minute. Hardly game breaking.

Well, if those 2 ships are a cap, and cost a cap of over hundred fleet ships, it is just as significant as if it killed hundreds of ships a minute. It doesn't matter the number of individual ships lost, what matters is the relative cost and power lost per minute.

(Incidentally, the Ion Eye can kill a cap of fleetships in 24 seconds.)

I'm guessing that is from using a low cap ship that doesn't have insta kill immunity like zombards? Because base ships take 96 seconds.

Keep in mind the vast majority of starships are base, so to really have an equal footing in comparison you need to compare base ships.

[chemical_art]

The damage still sounds a bit low to me for a 20s reload rate. So how about 12 million with a 10 or 15 second reload time. That should still be slow enough to be "reactable" against, or even "brute forceable" against, but still have the DPS to be threatening against a large cluster of higher mark starships.

That's still killing caps of units per minute in a global effect.

Which ones, only the 10s variation, or both 10 and 15 seconds.

The 15 second one would kill a cap of several starships, such as raids, plasma sieges, and flagships.

The 10 second one would pump it up to include all MK I ships starships, including unlockable or bonus ship types.

[Diazo]

The imbalance here is that you can brute force an ion-cannon with reasonable losses so when other units in the system force you to take out an ion-cannon with fleet ships you can do so without losing caps worth of fleet ships, only losing some fleet ships that you rebuild very quickly.

The OMD on the other hand does not really have this option. Because 2 starships (sometimes 1) is a cap of starships, having the OMD insta-kill starships is having the OMD insta-kill caps of starships.

Now there's a system where fleet ships are not an option and you have to brute force an OMD with starships. How do we make it painful but not crippling in both the early and late game?

D.

edit: To clarify the ion-cannon when it's targeting ships it can insta-kill, it kills one ship a second, so 96 seconds to kill a mark of most fleet ships (on normal caps).

[Tridus]

Well, if those 2 ships are a cap, and cost a cap of over hundred fleet ships, it is just as significant as if it killed hundreds of ships a minute. It doesn't matter the number of individual ships lost, what matters is the relative cost and power lost per minute.

Something that can't kill two ships in a minute really isn't a threat at all. It's basically what the Ion Cannons are right now: a nuisance.

I'm guessing that is from using a low cap ship that doesn't have insta kill immunity like zombards? Because base ships take 96 seconds.

Keep in mind the vast majority of starships are base, so to really have an equal footing in comparison you need to compare base ships.[/color]

No, that's the triangle ships. The Ion Eye takes out 16 ships every 4 seconds. A cap is 96. Doesn't take long.

Ion Cannons take 96 seconds, which is why nobody really worries about them.

[Tridus]

The imbalance here is that you can brute force an ion-cannon with reasonable losses so when other units in the system force you to take out an ion-cannon with fleet ships you can do so without losing caps worth of fleet ships, only losing some fleet ships that you rebuild very quickly.

The OMD on the other hand does not really have this option. Because 2 starships (sometimes 1) is a cap of starships, having the OMD insta-kill starships is having the OMD insta-kill caps of starships.

Now there's a system where fleet ships are not an option and you have to brute force an OMD with starships. How do we make it painful but not crippling in both the early and late game?

D.

edit: To clarify the ion-cannon when it's targeting ships it can insta-kill, it kills one ship a second, so 96 seconds to kill a mark of most fleet ships (on normal caps).

The Ion Cannon is overly weak, but that's kind of an unrelated thing. If the goal is to have OMDs solvable both early and late, then it's going to need to have marks like the Ion Cannons do. A mk I wouldn't be overly scary.

But if what we're going to get is a single mark version that you can take out with mk I Starships because the thing can't do enough damage to kill two mk I ships before those two ships can come vaporize it, then we might as well just leave it as it was before and not do anything, because it'll still be a waste of time.

[TechSY730]

Now there's a system where fleet ships are not an option and you have to brute force an OMD with starships. How do we make it painful but not crippling in both the early and late game?

D.

Different marks of OMDs, with rules in place that don't allow higher marks on lower leveled worlds or too close to the human homeworlds, and not allowing multiple marks to be on the same planet?

[chemical_art]

No, that's the triangle ships. The Ion Eye takes out 16 ships every 4 seconds. A cap is 96. Doesn't take long.

Ion Cannons take 96 seconds, which is why nobody really worries about them.

The Ion eye is not at all like an Ion cannon on so many levels.

It cannot spawn on AI Homeworlds. Only one can spawn. It does not act if certain conditions are met. ... ... ...


How does the comparison between the ion eye and the OMD really work again?

[Diazo]

I'm not sure I consider the Ion-eye valid for the balance discussion here. The ion-eye is deliberately activated by the player bringing too many ships in, it is not an always-on effect.

As for the not worrying about the ion-cannon, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, I do quite often brute force an Ion-cannon and just accept the losses, but just as often I pause to swap out for starships to kill them without losses.

However, fleet ships are so much cheaper to replace that losing a couple dozen to kill an ion-cannon is nothing, where-as losing just 3 or 4 starships to kill an OMD can be a show-stopper.

Keep in mind that the balance point I am aiming for is that the OMD is killable with starships, it just hurts because it is not the optimal strategy. However, if the other units in the system force you to kill the OMD with starships it has to be doable.

....

Actually, what about giving the OMD a boost back up into a starship shredder (20million per 20 seconds?) but remove it's EMP immunity? With only a single mark it is technically not a Mk V unit.

That way the player has a couple options if the fleet ships can not be used and spend resources (brute force) to rebuild the starships you lose or use and EMP (spending AIP) to do so.

Bleh, it already is not immune to EMPs. Hmmm.

D.

[chemical_art]

Different marks of OMDs, with rules in place that don't allow higher marks on lower leveled worlds or too close to the human homeworlds, and not allowing multiple marks to be on the same planet?

Still wouldn't solve the quagmire if it happens on a core world, yet alone a AI HW world.

[Being end game in of itself doesn't enable a magic wand that gives the player new tactical options between mid and late game]