Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?

[chemical_art]

Going to derail this derail for the OP for a moment:

K cost comparison (ZD vs HBS):

ZD cost 2.5x as much K to get to mk II
ZD cost 1.625 as much K to get to mk II

Anyway, since in practice the ZD does its job right, perhaps its K cost should be reduced? Right now only the K part really feels...wrong on paper. I mean it could be buffed (5% increase in health, range, and dps) but I think the K cost is a big offender.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Things that add too much !fun! should be optional or homeworld-only.

[Histidine]

In any case, unless OMDs are nerfed completely back to the way they were before, Peacemaker AI needs to not get two of them per planet.

[chemical_art]

Things that add too much !fun! should be optional or homeworld-only.

The problem is that homeworld-only is actually the worst place to add !fun! already, because there is a gluttony of it. Added more makes it expodentially worst.


Considering just how rarely I finish my games, and how I often I hear others say they haven't finished, I serious consider that AIHW defense hasn't really been really been thoroughly evaluated since AS mucked things up with champion cheese. Sure, plenty of things have been added, and they certainly increase grind and pain from RNG, but in a meta sense are they effective in adding fun or just !fun!.


Is it really fun if global settings are such that you have to cheese AI logic to manage to get enough firepower to wreck a building using some means? The gulf between AIHW defenses and non-AIHW defenses has become so great they are almost two different games. And I find myself doing what I did earlier in my game time with AI War: I am basing my whole game based on winning the AIHW, because that is exponentially the hardest part.


Maybe tomorrow I'll make a list of things that are potentially prohibitted as part of the current AIHW defense meta, as I glance through it the list is bloody staggering.

[The Hunter]

Things that add too much !fun! should be optional or homeworld-only.

We already have it mostly optional(peacemaker) and core/homeworld only, and i can't recall super fortresses/rain engines/AI eyes/etc being fully optional.

ZD cost 2.5x as much K to get to mk II
ZD cost 1.625 as much K to get to mk II

...lolwut. 
*mk3?


edit:

The problem is that homeworld-only is actually the worst place to add !fun! already, because there is a gluttony of it. Added more makes it expodentially worst.


Considering just how rarely I finish my games, and how I often I hear others say they haven't finished, I serious consider that AIHW defense hasn't really been really been thoroughly evaluated since AS mucked things up with champion cheese. Sure, plenty of things have been added, and they certainly increase grind and pain from RNG, but in a meta sense are they effective in adding fun or just !fun! for those who already can cheese 10/10.

Homeworld is supposed to be the most !!Fun!! part of the game, it's like endgame boss. 

[LaughingThesaurus]

Oh no, I have had a horribly sour encounter with Superfortresses. As in, I met a fortress and superfortress, both guarded by force fields, both covering each other, both in range of guard posts that counter polycrystal. Thankfully nothing was on the planet.

[chemical_art]

Homeworld is supposed to be the most !!Fun!! part of the game, it's like endgame boss. 

Again, that lies in the assumption !!Fun!! = fun, which I am convinced as of yet is not true on its own.

For me, the endgame boss is fun, while that optional boss post story is meant to be !!Fun!!

[The Hunter]

For me, the endgame boss is fun, while that optional boss post story is meant to be !!Fun!!

What optional boss. 

Oh no, I have had a horribly sour encounter with Superfortresses. As in, I met a fortress and superfortress, both guarded by force fields, both covering each other, both in range of guard posts that counter polycrystal. Thankfully nothing was on the planet.

Ow, that definitely would be definitely a !!Fun!! planet to cap, haha. Or alternatively cap artillery golem/get spirecraft penetrators/neinzul champ.

[chemical_art]

What optional boss. 

In AI Wars, the closest probably would be the "bosses" from either shadow devices or FS. Not a perfect analogy, so I'll make a better one.

In the final fantasy games, there is always a storyline "end boss". This end boss is for the most part meant to give a climatic battle, and unique in plenty of ways, but at its core doesn't strive to be !fun! for the sake of it. In most FF games though, either after the boss or through alternative paths near the end, eventually bosses that are actually much stronger then the storyline boss is found. These bosses are a lot less apologetic about the notion of !fun!.  There are plenty of reasons why the !fun! is added as an optional part and not a core part of the game.

[TechSY730]

Could the brutal picks stand to be made a bit less "hyper specialized"? Probably.

This which would actually make the brutal picks a bit more effective individually, but the less specialized they are, the more the "boost" of "effective utility" by having multiple kinds will be polynomial rather than exponential. So each individual one may be more threatening, but as a whole, a group of less specialized ones would actually be less threatening than a group of highly specialized ones.

But I don't think the idea of how the AI HW defenses work is flawed. Just some of the stats need tweaking.

That said, there is only like 1 or 2 brutal picks on difficulty 7, so it isn't all that bad even if you get a pair of picks that complement each other well. It's only at around 8 or up where you get enough brutal picks start being able to shutdown everything.

I will point out once again that humans "ultra stack" defenses all the time, so it only makes sense the AI does so as well. They just got a "head start" on it because, well, they won the war.


I still feel like fortresses need a similar treatment to be less "send polycrystal units in to slowly grind it to death"-ish, but that is another discussion.

(Hint for the fortresses + superfort + forcefields, transports filled with polycrystal units. The transports will let those polycrystal units get close enough to at least get some shots off on the forcefields)

[The Hunter]

In AI Wars, the closest probably would be the "bosses" from either shadow devices or FS. Not a perfect analogy, so I'll make a better one.

In the final fantasy games, there is always a storyline "end boss". This end boss is for the most part meant to give a climatic battle, and unique in plenty of ways, but at its core doesn't strive to be !fun! for the sake of it. In most FF games though, either after the boss or through alternative paths near the end, eventually bosses that are actually much stronger then the storyline boss is found. These bosses are a lot less apologetic about the notion of !fun!.

My comparison was mostly with arcade games, like shmups/platformers/shooters or even some other RTSes. I am not much into RPGs. Either way, as it is i don't see homeworld to be as !!Fun!! as FS or Showdown at the moment, so it seems to be in fine place on the ladder of !!Fun!! in my opinion. And if core game would not be !!Fun!! then why play core game anyways, there are lower difficulty levels for that which are much less !!Fun!!, if you want. 

[LaughingThesaurus]

For me, the endgame boss is fun, while that optional boss post story is meant to be !!Fun!!

What optional boss. 

Oh no, I have had a horribly sour encounter with Superfortresses. As in, I met a fortress and superfortress, both guarded by force fields, both covering each other, both in range of guard posts that counter polycrystal. Thankfully nothing was on the planet.

Ow, that definitely would be definitely a !!Fun!! planet to cap, haha. Or alternatively cap artillery golem/get spirecraft penetrators/neinzul champ.

No superweapons. I generally keep my games fairly vanilla, barring expansions. That means that, for instance, I can't just snipe OMDs with any kind of fancy superweapons, or stealth in a champion to cap entire systems, or anything like that.

[TechSY730]

That said, there is only like 1 or 2 brutal picks on difficulty 7, so it isn't all that bad even if you get a pair of picks that complement each other well. It's only at around 8 or up where you get enough brutal picks start being able to shutdown everything.

Actually, that would be interesting. Given the constraints of how much the AI can get at difficulty 10, can you come up with a layout for AI homeworld defense that even if you got the mathematically maximum number of units a single homeworld human could get (all unlocks all at cap, all ARSs with their unlocked units fully unlocked and at cap, all fabricators with their produced stuff at cap, the Mk. IV builders with Mk. IVs  at cap, and mercenaries at cap, and yes, warheads) WITH NO MINOR FACTIONS (so no golems, fallen spire, or spirecraft) and no champions, with near perfect unit control/micro, would still be near if not truly impossible to defeat? What about if warheads were not allowed? What if warheads and minor factions (except for fallen spire), on no greater than 4 intensity, were allowed?


Actually, if you construct such a AI HW defense given no minor faction/no warheads set of rules, but for difficulty 9.6 (difficulty 10 is supposed to be stupid; I don't consider when trying to keep things "reasonable"), then that would be pretty much proof that AI homeworld defenses are OP. Of course, this is not a nessecary condition for AI HW defenses to be considered OP and/or too grindy and/or not fun. It could still be beatable but still be OP and/or too grindy and/or not fun. But such a case most certainly would be sufficient.

[chemical_art]

Could the brutal picks stand to be made a bit less "hyper specialized"? Probably.

This which would actually make the brutal picks a bit more effective individually, but the less specialized they are, the more the "boost" of "effective utility" by having multiple kinds will be polynomial rather than exponential. So each individual one may be more threatening, but as a whole, a group of less specialized ones would actually be less threatening than a group of highly specialized ones.

There is merit to this idea.

But I don't think the idea of how the AI HW defenses work is flawed. Just some of the stats need tweaking.

That said, there is only like 1 or 2 brutal picks on difficulty 7, so it isn't all that bad even if you get a pair of picks that complement each other well.

Two are all that is needed. The teuthida locks down anything that can be reclaimed.  Core wraith post annihilates anything slow.  The AI Command station eliminates any sort of cloaking, and now OMD's crush any startship attack now.

Welcome to 7/7 


I will point out once again that humans "ultra stack" defenses all the time, so it only makes sense the AI does so as well. They just got a "head start" on it because, well, they won the war.

But is it fun? The AI and Humans operate on very different principles anyway.


I still feel like fortresses need a similar treatment to be less "send polycrystal units in to slowly grind it to death"-ish, but that is another discussion.

(Hint for the fortresses + superfort + forcefields, transports filled with polycrystal units. The transports will let those polycrystal units get close enough to at least get some shots off on the forcefields)
 

[The Hunter]

No superweapons. I generally keep my games fairly vanilla, barring expansions. That means that, for instance, I can't just snipe OMDs with any kind of fancy superweapons, or stealth in a champion to cap entire systems, or anything like that.

Ah, then few raids of some of ye olde raid starships plus transport of bombers under decloakers might work.

and now OMD's crush any startship attack now.

1 shot per 10 seconds is not THAT much, by that point player would have a good enough starship fleet and fleet of other non-reclaimable stuff to survive long enough to destroy the problem.