Author Topic: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?  (Read 24153 times)

Offline Bognor

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Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« on: July 10, 2013, 12:56:41 am »
Edit: I've since realised my very first sentence below is incorrect, making my argument invalid.  But LordSloth seems to have raised a valid argument, so I'll let my post stand...

If I understand the intended balance of fleet ships and starships correctly (not guaranteed), the idea is that a cap of triangle fleet ships should have roughly double the utility of a cap of ordinary combat starships.  That's reflected in the lower knowledge costs of the starships and is intended to discourage players from relying on the same basic starships every game.  However, bonus starships need to be balanced the same as bonus fleet ships.  That's necessary so that players who unlock a bonus starship from an ARS aren't getting a bad deal. 

Long ago, bonus fleet ships were intended to be 30-50% better than triangle fleet ships.  I'm not sure whether that's still the case, but if it is, it says bonus starships ought to be more than twice as good as basic combat starships.

Putting numbers on all that, the relative utilities for caps of combat ships should be something like this:

Ship cap type           Relative utility
Triangle fleet ship     1.0
Bonus fleet ship        1.3-1.5
Basic combat starship   0.5
Bonus combat starship   1.3-1.5

So my question is, are Zenith Devastators balanced correctly?  Here are some stats comparing them to Heavy Bomber Starships:

Stat  (HBS / ZD)
Hull  (Polycrystal / Polycrystal)
Cap  (2 / 2)
Cap hit points  (33,000,000 / 33,000,000)
Speed  (110 / 44)
Range  (2,500 / 10,000)
Base Cap DPS  (270,000 / 340,000)
Bonus Cap DPS  (270,000 / 407,983)
Special abilities  (none / shoots through force fields)

So compared to Heavy Bomber Starships, Zevastators have a 26% higher base DPS, 51% higher bonus DPS (only against Heavy and UltraHeavy hulls), and a special ability. It looks to me like Zevastators are a bit better, like bonus ships should be a bit better, but not more than twice as good.

For comparison, Spire Corvettes have 88% higher Cap DPS than Spire Starships before you consider the modules.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:47:18 am by Bognor »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 01:36:46 am »
Are you suggesting that the bonus starships should have 2.5-3 times the usefulness of normal starships?  Aka, that Spire Corvettes are almost correctly balanced, but Zevas are not?

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 02:28:32 am »
For various reasons I'm not quite as certain of all your conclusions regarding target and achieved balance but rather than debate those points I thought I'd add fuel to the fire.  Zenith Devastators have the -same- knowledge cost as a fleet ship, not the same knowledge cost as your typical Starship combat line. 4000 for your MK3 Heavy Bomber, 6500 for your MK3 Devastator. I'm okay with those higher costs for a Protector and Spire Corvette Starship, but the Devastator doesn't have enough additional utility to warrant that higher cost.

With their compensating weaknesses (lack of armor, low speed, being outranged by their theoretical Spire foe) I'd think Devastators are perfectly well balanced as part of the regular starship lineup... but they are part of the bonus lineup with attendant costs.

A couple mutually exclusive ideas I'll throw out there:
*Cut knowledge costs to basic combat starship levels.
*Increase range dramatically (with a minimum of at least 15,000) while keeping current targeting restrictions. This would allow it to outrange plasma siege modules and match the fairly (spire) common MK2 Heavy Beam Cannon, as well as give it a significant anti-guardian "blob" support role. 20,000 range if you're feeling really generous.
*Grant immunity to radar dampening.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:30:30 am by LordSloth »

Offline Bognor

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 02:30:53 am »
Are you suggesting that the bonus starships should have 2.5-3 times the usefulness of normal starships?  Aka, that Spire Corvettes are almost correctly balanced, but Zevas are not?
That was what I was suggesting, but looking through my spreadsheet of ship stats, and looking again through the patch notes from the Starship rebalance, I think I'm wrong about a cap of starships being intended to have half the utility of a cap of fleet ships.  They actually seem to have similar or perhaps greater utility, so I'm not sure why they have lower knowledge costs.  Also, I think I miscalculated about Spire Corvettes... Will edit my OP shortly... Nope, I was right about Corvettes being far superior to Spire Starships (per cap), which is reflected in their higher knowledge costs of 2000 for Mark II and 3000 for Mark III.  Corvettes actually have unique knowledge costs since 6.013 to reflect the knowledge costs of upgrading their modules.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:45:15 am by Bognor »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 10:57:40 am »
Zevestators, like the other (2) bonus starships, are balanced basically as bonus ships rather than balanced as starships.  This means full knowledge costs and full utility, rather than roughly half of each.  The one exception being that they are balanced with the starship concept of "higher durability, lower dps" in mind (to some extent, at least; it still takes a back seat to fulfilling the idea behind the specific unit).

As for Zevestators not having enough utility, I suppose it's possible but that's not necessarily the feedback I've gotten thus far.   Being able to ignore enemy forcefields can be really, really stinking useful :)
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Offline MaxAstro

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 12:01:59 pm »
Yeah, huge fan of Zevastators right here.  Fortresses?  What are those?

It's almost to the point that I'm tempted to take them every game, because every game I'm going to encounter fortresses under glass and really, REALLY wish I had Zevastators handy.

Not sure if they are strictly mechanically balanced, but they fulfill their core conceit exceptionally well.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 12:03:02 pm »
fulfill their core conceit
In the running for typo of the month, I think :)
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 12:03:44 pm »
Launch the core conceits!

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 12:05:07 pm »
Launch the core conceits!
Along with the MkV Zenith Hubris and the Core Spire Condecension ;)
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 12:33:54 pm »
Time to Zevastate the typos!

On topic, I'm still in the early game of my experiment with the Devastators.

They are incredibly useful on the attack, especially against enemy forcefields.

However, the fact that they can not target small ships means their defensive utility is very limited and with the new OMDs one-shotting them, their end-game usefulness is going to be severely hampered. Add in the strategic reserve which is almost exclusively small ships the Devastators can't target to that mix also.

On paper, I think they are okay, maybe even slightly underpowered when compared to the Plasma Siege.

The Devastator does have DPS a little higher then the Plasma Siege, but only against a single target. If the Plasma siege hits many targets with a shot, it does higher DPS and it can target small ships also.

That's all on paper though, we'll see how my game actually plays out as I move into the mid and late game with them.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 12:35:05 pm »
Yea, it's pretty situational.  And definitely favors AI usage over human usage.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 01:41:25 pm »
OMDs can on shot zevastators? I have no ifea their new strength, but I do know that considering zevadtators are the tankiest HP that seems to me that OMDs are too stronger.

As for zevastators themselves I've been taking a back seat intentionally because I'm biased about them. If there is a need to buff I think either a range buff to 12k or an increase in f
dps to 2 mil (its old base dps) is good.

EDIT: Considering the difference between the HBS and the Zev, when considering just how much more K the zev costs does add some perspective.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:00:06 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline nitpik

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 01:50:04 pm »
I haven't crunched any numbers, but utility-wise they're amazing.

I also have that reaction now whenever I'm playing without them and run into tricky Mk IV guardpost(s) under forcefield(s) of "Damn, I really with I had devastators...".

 

Offline Tridus

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 02:15:49 pm »
The OMD now has the same damage per shot as a mk III Anti-Starship Guard Post, but lower (IIRC Half) the rate of fire. So yeah, they probably can one shot a lot of stuff. They were kind of a joke before, but now act as that thing that Protector Starships can't save you from.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Is the Zevastator incorrectly balanced?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 02:18:50 pm »
Yea, OMDs are basically now a fragile MkIII arachnid post with an ion-level range.  Pain incarnate.  If they're too awful I can just reduce their seeding frequency unless that doesn't seem like it'd deal with it.

I'd also like to make the Ion Cannons a lot nastier and a lot less common.

Though the AI's core worlds are probably still going to keep their ion/omd/warhead-int trio either way.
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