Author Topic: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?  (Read 7598 times)

Offline onyhow

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Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« on: March 11, 2014, 11:38:51 pm »
I love the dang Mk5 Turrets, but I think it may be too OP...I mean, last few games when I capture sufficient number of Turret Controllers I just replace ALL of my normal turrets with Mk5 due to the fact that full cap of them is around 2.5 times stronger than Mk1, and you need to spend knowledge to get mk2 AND build that to cap and at least half of mk1 to get to the same effectiveness level...and only on a single planet. I really think it should get some kind of nerf...

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 05:30:16 am »
If I remember correctly Energy cost was supposed to limit the amount of Mark V Turrets the player could build. So their Energy cost could be doubled or increased by 75% or 50%.

Another option would be to make the Turret Facbiractors mobile ships that would have a huge energy cost. When you capture the planet or hack the Turret Fabricator ship or whatever it becomes yours. And you would have to keep it alive to be able to build and rebuild the turrets.
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Offline onyhow

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 05:52:04 am »
My own view is to make the cap for mk 5 either at 1/5 or 1/6 of the standard cap (equivalent of mk1 dps for 1/5, a bit worse in case of 1/6), but allow back building other turret mk with mk5...I mean, look at Minifort...it's the first distributed defense system, and the thing's explicitly designed so that it can't do the job of repelling large fleet alone, only small fleets, but it can also be used to bolster your main choke...so I really think that Turret Controller should in a way be a bit like Minifort in the design philosophy...which means that you can build mk5 everywhere, but still need to find proper mk 1-3 turret distribution on where should your defense be bolstered.

...but that might be just me.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 06:48:45 am »
(equivalent of mk1 dps
Lowering the cap to 20 should be enough and they would still be very useful. All other stats should stay the same.
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 07:46:07 am »
I'd say the strength of the Core Turrets is relative to how difficult the showdown can be, which makes them fine.


Also, isn't that the same thing as right now but as a mobile ship, Kahuna? People would just move the ship as deep in their area as possible, and while I'd like to be able to do that, aside from the energy cost it'd make it easier to hold onto the turret controllers quickly unless the ship had the speed of a spire shard.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 10:52:28 am »
As a thought--this doesn't effect turret balance directly, but is related--what benefit does the AI have for controlling the turret controllers?

I kind of feel like the AI should utilize a handful of the mark 5s as well, until the controller is captured or hacked.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 12:30:07 pm »
(equivalent of mk1 dps
Lowering the cap to 20 should be enough and they would still be very useful. All other stats should stay the same.

A lower per planet cap seems like the best solution to retain the original intent (distributed defense) without making things too easy. I can only speak for myself, but energy is just never an issue in my games.

Offline onyhow

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 12:42:49 pm »
@Draco18s: I think it's like why the AI have ARS and Broken Golems lying around...I guess they just don't care enough to take care of those things. On the other hand, seeing AI using turret type they controlled can be pretty cool...

@Aklyon: what about if said ship need to travel to the system in order to build the turrets?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:51:36 pm by onyhow »

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 12:49:34 pm »
@Draco18s: I think it's like why the AI have ARS and Broken Golems lying around...I guess they just don't care enough to take care of those things. On the other hand, seeing AI using turret type they controlled can be pretty cool...

It would certainly be more interesting (and more optional) than the CSG.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 12:52:47 pm »
Oh god, that would mean the return of AI spider turret clusters. I thought we'd put that horror down forever.

I'm trying to remember the exact reasons that AI turrets were removed in the first place, but I recall it being a lengthy discussion and a well-thought-out decision. It seems unlikely that they'd want to go back that way, especially since you'd have to re implement the support apparatus (AI engineers and rebuilders). On the other hand, we do still have clean-up drones, and this is exactly what they used to be for...

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 02:34:35 pm »
It also wouldn't be arbitrary and everywhere.  Figure core worlds and homeworls and possibly Mk4 worlds, and by taking/hacking/destroying the turret controller, all of the AI turrets of that type would be destroyed.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 03:08:52 pm »
It also wouldn't be arbitrary and everywhere.  Figure core worlds and homeworls and possibly Mk4 worlds, and by taking/hacking/destroying the turret controller, all of the AI turrets of that type would be destroyed.

Yup, to be clear I'm not opposed to the idea, I'm just trying to think through the consequences and, as I said, trying to remember the reasoning involved in removing them in the first place.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 03:46:26 pm »
Point.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 03:48:05 pm »
If I remember correctly Energy cost was supposed to limit the amount of Mark V Turrets the player could build. So their Energy cost could be doubled or increased by 75% or 50%.
It does add up.  In many of my games, I'll end up running 40-50 matter coverters at endgame, just to power my Core Turrets that I've built everywhere.  That's 4000-5000 m/c per second.  Aka, most of my endgame economy.

I love the dang Mk5 Turrets, but I think it may be too OP...I mean, last few games when I capture sufficient number of Turret Controllers I just replace ALL of my normal turrets with Mk5 due to the fact that full cap of them is around 2.5 times stronger than Mk1, and you need to spend knowledge to get mk2 AND build that to cap and at least half of mk1 to get to the same effectiveness level...and only on a single planet. I really think it should get some kind of nerf...
While you're correct that the Core Turrets basically replace Mk Is, there's the question of exactly how powerful should they be?  You need to first find, and then capture/hack a specific Fabricator to get each turret type.  Getting all 8 costs either 160 AIP or 985 HaP - neither trivial.
One of the reasons they seem so powerful is that they can replace Mk I turrets everywhere, and Mk IIs everywhere but your one whipping boy.  They do a decent to good job of stopping low AIP (<100) waves if you've got 3-4 useful types.  However, even en masse, CPAs will crush a system with nothing but Core Turrets, and Counter Waves will frequently cause problems as well.  So they cannot be relied upon as your only defense.

This falls back to the old discussions of distributed vs concentrated defense.  Whipping boys and blockages and low-interconnection maps became the standard for play at high levels, because that was the only practical play style.  The introductions of Core Turrets has allowed higher difficulty play on wide open maps, as you can actually defend more than one or two systems.  I've been enjoying the Hex map a lot, for example, which I would have never touched before.

So if the distributed defense has become too powerful when centered on Core Turrets, what about reversing the situation?  Allow normal (Mk I-III) turrets to have half-caps on a per-planet level, and Core Turrets to have a full cap, galaxy wide.  It'd encourage spending Knowledge on normal turrets more frequently, give a better reward for doing so, while still giving something out there to really power up the Whipping Boy system for dealing with Exowaves, CPAs, and the like.
Would probably require rebalancing K/energy/resource costs.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Is Mk5 turret too powerful?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 03:52:33 pm »
So if the distributed defense has become too powerful when centered on Core Turrets, what about reversing the situation?  Allow normal (Mk I-III) turrets to have half-caps on a per-planet level, and Core Turrets to have a full cap, galaxy wide.  It'd encourage spending Knowledge on normal turrets more frequently, give a better reward for doing so, while still giving something out there to really power up the Whipping Boy system for dealing with Exowaves, CPAs, and the like.
Would probably require rebalancing K/energy/resource costs.

That would definitely be an interesting way to go. With core turret controllers in the game I find I'm no longer willing to part with the knowledge cost to get higher mark turrets, it just seems like a waste. This would certainly change that.