Author Topic: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?  (Read 8903 times)

Offline Chthon

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 10:26:06 am »
but when it comes to mobile ships that can be used in combat and have radar dampening, the player doesn't really have all that many options

This is true, I was just stating the general rule of thumb behind the design of the attribute.

Sort of like how "ships with regeneration are immune to repair."  This is true for ever unit except two that I know of.
I don't know where you keep pulling this rule.  I've never seen it stated anywhere, and if it's the case, why have both regen tag and immune to repair tag.  Plus there is a 3rd.  The Regenerator Golem.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 12:37:58 pm »
I don't know where you keep pulling this rule.  I've never seen it stated anywhere, and if it's the case, why have both regen tag and immune to repair tag.  Plus there is a 3rd.  The Regenerator Golem.

That was one of the two I'm aware of:  Transports and Regenerator Golem.  What's the third?

The former doesn't need it (its repair time is seconds) the latter is a golem so by definition is an exception to the usual rules.

Mines used to fall into this category, but last time I looked they no longer had regen.

As for "why have both tags"?
1) Communication to the player
2) Exceptions to the rule*

As to where the rules come from, it's called "game design."  There are a set of general guidelines that Keith and Chris follow when designing units to insure an accepted level of balance.  They are not hard and fast rules, they're simply a known set of tradeoffs.  Sort of how "ship cap health should be X."  Are there units that break that rule?  Sure.  But that doesn't invalidate the rule.  Nor does following the rules always result in a unit that is balanced.  Which is why we have buff/nerf cycles.

*For example, the spirecraft-asteroid shield bearer.  Immune to repair but no regen.  The "rule" is that Regen implies No Repair (all squares are rectangles) not Regen and No Repair are the same thing (not all rectangles are squares).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 12:43:21 pm by Draco18s »

Offline alocritani

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 12:53:09 pm »
I don't know where you keep pulling this rule.  I've never seen it stated anywhere, and if it's the case, why have both regen tag and immune to repair tag.  Plus there is a 3rd.  The Regenerator Golem.

That was one of the two I'm aware of:  Transports and Regenerator Golem.  What's the third?


VampireClaw and Zenith Hydra

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 01:12:50 pm »
VampireClaw and Zenith Hydra

Hydra's new enough that I've played with it once.
Vampire Claw I'd forgotten about.

I love claws though.  I'm glad cutlasses got a boost, as they were inferior to the claw on every metric except raw damage and hitpoints (vampires have vampirism, but cutlasses have self-damage, eliminating the hp difference, but vampires were faster meaning they actually HIT more than once against most units, as the cutlass could only catch very slow units).

Claws should probably still be immune to repair, as they have both regen and vampirism, but that's just me.

Offline tadrinth

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2014, 12:51:53 am »
A niche I don't think anyone has mentioned: clogging tractor beams, especially paralyzing ones.  Also Maws and devouring units in general. 

Autocannon minipods are way scarier in AI hands due to the turret bonuses.   

Space planes can kill superfortresses and take no damage.  They really need to be high cap; AI Eyes are one of their few weaknesses.  Also, since they're so fragile, if you screw up while kiting with them, they're so high cap that a few space planes get one-shot and the rest survive.   I'm just finishing up a game where I started with them, and they've been ridiculously strong at clearing systems (as long as there's no eyes and no forcefields). 

There was talk of Laser Gatlings getting paralysis shots.

That just leaves Tachyon Microfighters.  As fighters they're pretty much there for damage soaking anyway; I think it's probably fine for the base game to have at least one high cap damage-soaking unit (not everyone plays with all the expacs all the time, so neinzul youngling might not be available). If something is going to get tractored or paralyzed or devoured, these are your best bet by far in the base game.  Buffs probably wouldn't hurt though, as they don't offer much over regular fighters. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:55:31 am by tadrinth »

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2014, 04:09:29 am »
I really like Swarmer ships and killing them. I wish there was a Swarmer AI that would have all high ship cap ships unlocked.

if %ShipCap% GTR 96 (
   set /A ship=unlocked
)
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Vacuity

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Re: Is anything weak to hi-cap ships?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2014, 01:18:48 pm »
If I can summarise what I understand thus far:

Etherjets have uses due to their tractor beams, good dps coupled with very powerful and useful damage bonuses along with cloaking which complements both the tractor beam and the damage if handled well.

Autocannon Minipods are useful in the game not so much as a bonus ship for the player to use, but as an AI bonus ship to fight against.  Kind of a shame, but fair enough.

Space Planes are useful and powerful for knocking out specific targets and then retreating at high speed before they get overwhelmed.

Anti Armor I never really had an issue with over the longer game, so much as why I would want it as a starting bonus ship, but in any case; it's got long range, very high firepower and essentially ignores armour, which makes it very powerful, but it's also hideously fragile.

Tachyon Microfighters have a higher cap health than a fighter cap which could make them a useful "meat shield" or fodder for a black widow's paralysing tractor beams, but come at almost twice the total cost of a fighter cap, so, uh, maybe not?

Laser Gatlings have nothing going for them either at present?

A swarmer AI could also be fun.  Maybe we could recommend it for the next expansion, shame that it'd probably fall under the category of an "Easy" AI... :P