Is AIP too inhibitive?

[Lancefighter]

The local consensus around here seems to be that if you make it to mk2 waves, the game is over very soon, either by winning (the first homeworld death makes it mk2 at worst, and then you win shortly after), or by things getting too hard (mk2 waves are apparently too difficult).

So The question I am asking I guess, is that should the aip getting above 200 be a death sentence like it is? People seem to absolutely hate when I take a few early systems for econ/strategic positioning/etc.. Is it completely not viable to play the game at entirely mk2+ levels of aip?

A somewhat corollary to that - Is reduction in aip too possible? Is the superterminal thing too easy for the most part?

Do waves scale up too quickly with aip? Are turrets not strong enough (or, do people not build enough turrets?) Some other related questions could probably be asked, but i really need to get to sleep

[PokerChen]

Well, it's not that mark-II waves are themselves deadly, it's more that once you get to around the ~300 AIP mark AI reinforcements start to build up more than you can easily clear out, at which point the game will irreversibly head towards a stalemate (albeit that can be very slowly) unless you do something. Eventually the 'somethings' related to +AIP starts to feeds the waves (exponential) more than the knowledge gives you firepower (linear).

In an ordinary game (Diff 7) It's still not too difficult to attack the homeworlds at AIP 500, since by that point you have enough knowledge to to defeat almost all the normal AI-attacks, except possibly the brutal pick on the AI HW. There are sufficient timing windows to finish the game even at this level. However, from my standpoint it's... advantageous to take on the Core Raid Engine before it can spawn 1000's of mark-IV ships. In addition, the AI Eye on the HW is always next to the Home Command, which is always (almost) protected by 1+ FFs and 1 mark-III fortress.

So there's some leeway for fun, I think. Leeway to make smileys with fortresses and the such. ;P Fallen Spire is designed to allow players to go higher, so long as they don't expand in every direction (in the current mechanics; speed 8 is *painful* to watch - I tried a snake map with FS............ -__- ).

The mark-II "threshold" is fixable with the mixed-mark waves mechanics. It will also make carriers appear later in the game, rather than at the tail end of mark-I and then some silence.

[orzelek]

In general there is a pressure all around to ride on the floor with AIP. If you have any kind of exo waves enabled they reinforce that by scaling with the AIP and making it more difficult to defend. So it's not so much the waves but the added things.

In few recent games I tried to keep AIP very low (playing on 7.3) - there is enough of additional things (hybrids, exos, champion) to keep me busy on defense or attack that I need waves to be less dangerous than usual.

As for turrets.. there is always not enough of them I'm not sure if some of them aren't a bit costly in knowledge but that radar dampening from Mk II would compensate a bit.

I can't tell much about wave power. Last longer game I played was sledge hammer and bully but I didn't go above 50 AIP so waves were quite manageable with some static defenses and fortress. Also I had some help from nebula allies so fleet help was not required for defense.

[Kahuna]

The local consensus around here seems to be that if you make it to mk2 waves, the game is over very soon, either by winning (the first homeworld death makes it mk2 at worst, and then you win shortly after), or by things getting too hard (mk2 waves are apparently too difficult).

I don't think there's anything wrong with MarkII waves. It's more about the waves sizes. How many ships each wave has. "when playing on difficulties greater than 8, the AI players will always be one Mark level higher than normal, until they hit Mark IV." So on difficulties greater than 8 even the first wave only has MarkII ships. Just keep the AIP low.

Do waves scale up too quickly with aip? Are turrets not strong enough (or, do people not build enough turrets?)

I think wave scaling is fine.
Turrets are strong enough. It seems to be that turrets are underrated and people don't use them enough. Strong defense can "auto stop" (without fleet) few thousand ships on 10 diff (+100 AIP and II tech lvl).

[TechSY730]

The local consensus around here seems to be that if you make it to mk2 waves, the game is over very soon, either by winning (the first homeworld death makes it mk2 at worst, and then you win shortly after), or by things getting too hard (mk2 waves are apparently too difficult).

I don't think there's anything wrong with MarkII waves. It's more about the waves sizes. How many ships each wave has. "when playing on difficulties greater than 8, the AI players will always be one Mark level higher than normal, until they hit Mark IV." So on difficulties greater than 8 even the first wave only has MarkII ships. Just keep the AIP low.

Actually, in the latest versions, it is >9 that gets the free scale up. And actually, that was changed too. For difficulties >9, they now get a reduction in how much it takes to get to Mk. II, but for difficulties >= 9, they can replace some of their Mk. Is for Mk. IIs (for the proper "exchange" rate though).
EDIT: Now, only on difficulty >=10 do they a Mk. II waves at the start.

And from my experience, for difficulties <= 8, you can afford to hit Mk. II waves. You really should start panicking about waves once AIP gets close to the Mk. III point.

Turrets are strong enough. It seems to be that turrets are underrated and people don't use them enough. Strong defense can "auto stop" (without fleet) few thousand ships on 10 diff (+100 AIP and II tech lvl).

Yea, I don't know why people underestimate the turrets. They actually pack quite a bit of power, especially now that the higher marks of the mid range turrets get radar dampening.

[Diazo]

Okay, found the patch notes.

Only Diff 10 starts with Mk II ships.

Diff 9.0 and lower the Mk II waves start at 300 - (Diff * 10) so on Diff 9.0 Mk II waves start at 210 AIP.

Normally the 'in-between" difficulties have the same tech thresholds, so Diff 7.0 and 7.3 start the Mk II waves at the same AIP.

However, 9.3 and higher have an additional modifier where the Mk II waves start lower, as follows:

9.3 = 148 AIP
9.6 = 85 AIP
9.8 = 43. AIP

Diffictuly 9.0 and higher also gets a mixed wave composition based on how close the AIP is to the threshold.

]To add back some of the difficulty but in a more granular fashion than before, on diff 9+ (not just 9.3+) waves will have a portion of their fleet ships "promoted" to the next tech level according to how close AIP is to the next tech level.

    So if you're playing on 9.6 and have 50 AIP, approximately 50/85= 58% of the mkIs fleet ships in a wave will be promoted to mkII.
    Of course, they'll also run into the tech level multiplier which will reduce their actual numbers significantly, but roughly 58% of the wave's "strength" of that ship type was spent on the higher tech level.

As for what the thread is actually about, I'm not sure I have room to comment as I play diff 10 so I start the game getting slammed with Mk II waves.

Having said that, I don't think it is so much the Mk II waves that put people off, it is the jump from Mk I to Mk II waves. Remember that Mk II ships have stats roughly double that of Mk I, defences that handled Mk I waves without much difficulty can fall to that first Mk II wave when the threshold is crossed so the "wall" between Mk I and MK II is seen as artificially high.

What I'd like to see is the mixed Mk levels based on how close you are to the threshold applied to all difficulty levels, but have the mixed waves start at halfway to the threshold. This will make the MK I -> Mk II transition for waves much more even, rather then being this sharp cliff when you cross that threshold to Mk II.

More exactly, I'd like to see something like: ([Effective AIP] - [Threshold AIP / 2]) / [Threshold AIP / 2] for the percentage of ships with the higher mark.

D.

[Mánagarmr]

I should say that AIP is not too inhibitive. On the levels were most AAR players play, yes it is. But that is meant to be. If you play on Diff 8 or below, you have a far more lenient AIP progression.

[TechSY730]

I should say that AIP is not too inhibitive. On the levels were most AAR players play, yes it is. But that is meant to be. If you play on Diff 8 or below, you have a far more lenient AIP progression.

Agreed. When I am playing casually, I play against difficulty 8. While it is no walk in the park, I don't panic about AIP until it starts getting about 3/4 to the Mk. III wave threshold.

As mentioned, difficulty 10 generally should not be considered a good picture of balance, as it is supposed to be the AI playing unfair.

What I'd like to see is the mixed Mk levels based on how close you are to the threshold applied to all difficulty levels, but have the mixed waves start at halfway to the threshold. This will make the MK I -> Mk II transition for waves much more even, rather then being this sharp cliff when you cross that threshold to Mk II.

More exactly, I'd like to see something like: ([Effective AIP] - [Threshold AIP / 2]) / [Threshold AIP / 2] for the percentage of ships with the higher mark.

Keith mentioned that is the cap per Mk was made constant (which it is going to be now), he was strongly considering "backporting" the mixed mark logic to earlier difficulty levels.

[Diazo]

What I'd like to see is the mixed Mk levels based on how close you are to the threshold applied to all difficulty levels, but have the mixed waves start at halfway to the threshold. This will make the MK I -> Mk II transition for waves much more even, rather then being this sharp cliff when you cross that threshold to Mk II.

More exactly, I'd like to see something like: ([Effective AIP] - [Threshold AIP / 2]) / [Threshold AIP / 2] for the percentage of ships with the higher mark.

Keith mentioned that is the cap per Mk was made constant (which it is going to be now), he was strongly considering "backporting" the mixed mark logic to earlier difficulty levels.

The things you miss when you go away for a weekend. 

Good to hear though.

One other thought I just had, back when I was working my way up to diff 10/10, at the start of the game I would look at the Mk II threshold and go "okay, that's my AIP limit for this game, how do I stay under it?"

It was not me thinking that was a lose condition, it was just how I set my desired AIP progress limit for that game and I certainly won games when I went above it, but I think this is really about player perception, not about any sort of 'wall' that actually exists at the threshold in game.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, if you look at a certain subset of players, and just the games they talk about around here, it looks like AIW = AIP-floor-or-bust.  But that's really not the situation in the game.  The way I look at it there are 3 ways of relating to the AIP mechanic:

1) Massive Paranoia.  Necessary for serious attempts at 10/10.  Do not incur AIP unless absolutely necessary to winning the game.  Do not leave homeworld, do not pass go, do not collect $200, until ready to take down the literally-mission-critical targets.

2) Moderate Paranoia.  Generally works for anything under 9, depending.  Try to avoid frivolous AIP, but don't really sweat it as long as a decent chokepoint can handle the waves, etc.

3) AIP?  Complete disregard.  Generally only works once you've got a few cities up in Fallen Spire, but can work fairly gloriously then.  Since Fallen Spire exos have no relationship to AIP, you can use the capital ships to do tapdances on the AI's face and not really worry too much about the waves as long as you can make sure your cities and capital ships are between the waves and your home command station.  Last FS game I played all the way through I think I was at 1200 AIP by the end.  The waves were noticeable, but not particularly problematic as long as I kept them from combining with exos.

[orzelek]

3) AIP?  Complete disregard.  Generally only works once you've got a few cities up in Fallen Spire, but can work fairly gloriously then.  Since Fallen Spire exos have no relationship to AIP, you can use the capital ships to do tapdances on the AI's face and not really worry too much about the waves as long as you can make sure your cities and capital ships are between the waves and your home command station.  Last FS game I played all the way through I think I was at 1200 AIP by the end.  The waves were noticeable, but not particularly problematic as long as I kept them from combining with exos.

I think I need to test this way.
I'm waiting currently for final size of champions to see what more is in the stock

[KDR_11k]

I think turrets are perceived as weak because people start out on lower difficulties where you have far more planets to fortify against border aggression so you can't afford to place turrets in numbers that could do anything against a proper wave. I use them as basic protection against stray ships but when a wave comes I always send some mobile force. Hell, I'm playing my first game where I don't keep my territory connected (diff 8, so far my fleet rarely ever leaves my territory because all my attacks are performed by a champion and soon my cursed golem).

[Draco18s]

3) AIP?  Complete disregard.  Generally only works once you've got a few cities up in Fallen Spire, but can work fairly gloriously then.  Since Fallen Spire exos have no relationship to AIP, you can use the capital ships to do tapdances on the AI's face and not really worry too much about the waves as long as you can make sure your cities and capital ships are between the waves and your home command station.  Last FS game I played all the way through I think I was at 1200 AIP by the end.  The waves were noticeable, but not particularly problematic as long as I kept them from combining with exos.

Problem is, that only works for the Fallen Spire, of course.

Mine and my friend's typical playstyle is to create a chokepoint and avoid Mk3, but oftentimes this causes such a huge buildup of free threat/reinforcement counts that the game grinds to a stalemate (or becomes unplayable due to the sheer number of units, though generally only when there are 4+ homeworlds).
(Does that put us in category 2?)

[Hearteater]

Under difficulty 8, I wouldn't even think twice about hitting 500 AIP before getting to a homeworld.  I actually built up quite a bit of AIP in my most recent 8/8 AAR and although I did ride a Super Terminal for -110 AIP, I was at 192 AIP before that and I wasn't having any trouble.  I didn't take on the first Homeworld until 207 AIP.

So no, I don't think AIP is too inhibiting.

[keith.lamothe]

3) AIP?  Complete disregard.  Generally only works once you've got a few cities up in Fallen Spire, but can work fairly gloriously then.  Since Fallen Spire exos have no relationship to AIP, you can use the capital ships to do tapdances on the AI's face and not really worry too much about the waves as long as you can make sure your cities and capital ships are between the waves and your home command station.  Last FS game I played all the way through I think I was at 1200 AIP by the end.  The waves were noticeable, but not particularly problematic as long as I kept them from combining with exos.

Problem is, that only works for the Fallen Spire, of course.

What exactly makes that a problem?  If a non-FS game could be played with complete disregard to AIP (as it can be on Diff 1, I imagine), where exactly would the challenge come from?  I guess you could turn on Dark Spire and Devourer Golem and play it as a race against time