Ion Cannons

[chemical_art]

ion cannons are frail, expensive, and are weak compared to other defenses of its class.

And this proposal does nothing for the first two.

Rather than a weird dynamic ROF, I'd rather work be put into allowing Ions to hit Insta-Kill Immune targets so they can put their Engine Damage to use.  Because low-cap ships might be immune to insta-kill itself, but 60 ED a second is no joke.  Even Starships would notice if they strayed in system too long.

Your proposal is weaker then mine, yet bring up mine doesn't change the problem 

i thought it was implied they could have some increased health, but if you need that explicit so be it.

ED does even less to address the problem then scaling rof, since to overcome the defense you would do the exactly the same as before. if you send in more then the absolute minimal then ed is not a worry.


scaling rof would help give the ion cannon a unique mechanic against blobbing.

[Hearteater]

You like the idea, and are just interested in pushing it without any regard to anyone else's opinion.  So this isn't a discussion, but an ad platform.

[TechSY730]

On one hand, we want to keep Ion cannons useful to humans when the AI sends its blobs. On the other hand, don't want to give the AI yet another mechanic that favors low cap ships...

Not really sure how to address that.

Scaling could work (make it equally effective against large blobs and small blobs in a "percent killed over time" sense. But that just seems more complicated than it is worth...


For a less "radical" change in terms of mechanics, here is an idea...

In addition to the usual HP, costs (especially for higher marks...exponential, really? Wouldn't polynomial be a similar deterrent but not feel like a slap in the face?) and shorts per salve and reload time things that may need adjustment, I think that "able to fire on things immune to instant kill" has promise.
The spire ion laster currently has a non-instakill DPS about that of an equivalent spire siege tower. Maybe give the ion cannon a non-instakill DPS of about 1/2 to 2/3 of its equivalent spire siege tower (which would imply scaling over mark), make it's engine damage scale over mark as well, and then let fire upon things immune to instant kill. Of course, it's default targetting behavior should favor those things it can kill in one bullet (which may mean firing upon things that are instakill immune if their remaining health is low enough).
Not sure whether spire ion blasters should be able to fire upon things with instakill immunity. It would be nice if it could keep its engine damage constant though, so it could be more of a "direct damaging" style ion weapon, while the ion cannon can be more about support with long range engine damage (which at higher marks, would have a pretty darn high engine DPS).

[chemical_art]

You like the idea, and are just interested in pushing it without any regard to anyone else's opinion.  So this isn't a discussion, but an ad platform.

 

I didn't create the idea.

I'm providing reasons why I think it is a good idea, and when you criticized a premise of my idea and your proposal failed to address the premise any better I was confused.

That is a discussion, although it may have been presented in a way you didn't like.

[Faulty Logic]

On one hand, we want to keep Ion cannons useful to humans when the AI sends its blobs. On the other hand, don't want to give the AI yet another mechanic that favors low cap ships...

Not really sure how to address that.

Remove the low-cap ships immune to insta-kill tag. They are strong enough in other areas to compensate. Or, remove guardian insta-kill immunity. Or both.

ROF increase sounds good, by a factor of 2 or 4. I don't really like the dynamic ROF idea; doesn't add enough value for its complexity.

I don't think it needs HP, because it can fire from under forcefields with no penalty.

[TechSY730]

Yea, I guess only allowing the guardian tier and above access to immunity to insta-kill would work, and remove it from any of the fleetships.


Wait, do turrets have immunity to insta-kill? If not, then guardians should lose their insta-kill immunity as well, making insta-kill immunity only allowed for starship tier and above.

[Vyndicu]

I am not too sure that any change to ion cannon is really necessary.

Due to a lucky RNG I was able to find an ion cannon mk 5! on a prefect, microcosm - cluster map, chokehold with fallen spire campaign and hard broke golem (both), and hard spirecraft from asteroid enabled. I was like a boy in a candy store with no price tag attached to any candies. I don't think the AI is too happy to be a store owner that day do we?

Assuming the ion cannon "get stronger vs larger cap" is implement. It would just burn through all of the exo-waves and whatever left will just be immune to instant-kill if I use gravity turret. Why? Because the wormholes from the nearby cluster is a LONG way from the other wormholes and I don't believe exo-wave have a limit to how many fleetship they can bring so.... Deathcount will be surely be exorbitant for that ion cannon mk5.

[KDR_11k]

Perhaps human-operated ICs could fire faster the higher your energy surplus is. I think AI ICs may not need much of a buff as they can be pretty annoying and if they get too strong they could make bad RNG rolls lead to impenetrable planets.

[Hearteater]

That's an interesting option.  A linear increase probably wouldn't work, but one of the various non-linear options could work nicely.  The AI would obviously use something separate.  Maybe it should get its surplus energy from its Command Stations, so each time you kill one, all the AI Ions get a little weaker.  Of course you're increasing your AIP in return.

[LordSloth]

I'm not to certain the ion cannon needs a huge boost either, but I'm not certain it doesn't, either.

I do think it would be interesting to ask the following questions, just as a point of context to the discussions.

• What difficulty do you usually play on?
• Do you often play against harder AI types?
• Do you play with superweapons? Yours or the AI doesn't matter, just their existence.
• Do you play with multiple homeworlds?

My answers

• 7-8
• Nope, medium/easier random
• I play with superweapons around 50-75% of the time.
• No, excepting co-op

From my recent aip memo games, I've found Ion Cannons tactically significant yet not game-changers. I try to take them about 10% of the time because of map layout. If the scaling of AIP and systems does take that theoretical 2/3s rule, I might possibly even find them mattering against a pair of offensive AIs, not just the defensive ones.

From my recent AI starship, player fleetship focused games, I've found Ion Cannons tactically insignificant especially with the cost of repairing them (frequent plasma siege starships bypassing FF, though perhaps engine damage might be the solution to that...).

Simply speaking, at a 'standard game' setting, the ion cannons seem to be in a decent position, where the cost of taking them isn't often worthwhile, but when taking out the command early is an option, it seems to help considerably if I'm not being hammered with huge waves at one central location. When I am investing heavily into a single chokepoint, such as in co-op, I see some of the issues, especially when carriers start to be involved, but I'm running a heavy engine damage defense strategy at the moment.

Are ion cannons fundamentally flawed, or is it merely a question of scaling?  On the other hand, I do clearly remember the days when Ion Cannons were quite dramatic, and not merely functional. If Ion Cannons power up once again, it is worth considering the improved guard posts in the equation, and whether or not even raid starships would be able to help against a defensive AI and the right roll of the RNG in the overlap of defensive structures.

[RCIX]

I'm not to certain the ion cannon needs a huge boost either, but I'm not certain it doesn't, either.

I do think it would be interesting to ask the following questions, just as a point of context to the discussions.

• What difficulty do you usually play on?
• Do you often play against harder AI types?
• Do you play with superweapons? Yours or the AI doesn't matter, just their existence.
• Do you play with multiple homeworlds?

7-7.6ish, not really, yes (golems at least, spirecraft as well usually), and no.

[Cinth]

From my 7.6 games, Ions are a pain, especially when a MK III sits in a planet you need to travel through.  Early on, the only way to deal with them are immune ships.  Often I find myself short on energy to put out enough SS and keep a significant defense.

Side note from 7.6 games:  Ion eyes are OP.  They easily wipe an entire fleet blob (shot travel and reload put a ton of shots in the air).

From my 16 HW games:  Ions aren't worth 2 cents.  I pop every one the AI has and I won't build any form the trader. 

[Chthon]

Quick question.  Is the game balanced for all number of homeworlds, or only certain number of homeworlds.  16 homeworlds seems kinda extreme since you will have huge caps of ships available.

Edit:  Also, would it make it more "fair" if Ion Cannons fired a # of shots that scaled not with # of incoming ships, but # of player homeworlds?

[Hearteater]

From my 7.6 games, Ions are a pain, especially when a MK III sits in a planet you need to travel through.  Early on, the only way to deal with them are immune ships.  Often I find myself short on energy to put out enough SS and keep a significant defense.

Side note from 7.6 games:  Ion eyes are OP.  They easily wipe an entire fleet blob (shot travel and reload put a ton of shots in the air).

They die in 2-5 shot from Raid Starships, and Raid Starships come in a pack of 3.  That kills Mark I-III instantly, and Marks IV and V in just 4 seconds.  The only reason NOT to raid them out is because you want to keep them.

[Cinth]

Not balanced where I like to play   I just posted my observations and why I put both my 7.6 games (from the memo thread) and my usual 16 HW games.

@ Hearteater: I know that    Place your cap of turrets, build your caps of fleetships and see how much E you have left for SS.
RNG forbid you get saddled with a MK IV neighbor that you have to go through.  I don't want them around because I chokepoint on AI worlds.