Ion Cannons

[RCIX]

So i was playing and I noticed, the Ion Cannons really seem lame now. They gib 4 every 8 seconds, which really doesn't seem like much at all. I don't remember if they were 1/second or 1 per 2 seconds before, but 4 every 8 seconds feels really lame =/

Here's my idea. Have Ion cannons go back to one shot. Now, give them an ability that says "Gains an Additional Shot for each X Enemy units on planet", which does exactly what it says on the tin (X being experimented with for a sweet spot). This keeps Ion Cannons scary to large fleet forces without feeling like you can't attack with smaller low-cap raiding forces and achieve nothing.

Basically, Ion Cannons before when they were firing streams of projectiles were something you could never afford to attack given that you'd be quickly losing ships as long as you remained on the planet, and attrition would kill your resources before you could clear it reasonably. The new ion cannon is a non-threat to reasonable sized fleetballs, and you can even assault multi-cannon worlds without caring once you have a large fleet. Never mind the current strength of starship only games and lowcap units in general =p

[Wingflier]

I agree with this (or something like this), that somehow adjusts the "power" of the Ion Cannon based on the size of your force. That way we could take "ion cannon immunity" away from the low-cap stuff, which would be a big step in the right direction for the game balance imo.

[RCIX]

To add, its tricky to balance Ion Cannons as-is because Zenith Trader nonwithstanding, it'll be very difficult to strike a balance where the player wants to do something other than ignore and not care about whether ion cannons exist in the first place or just stomp them into the ground before assaulting the world because they're too strong to be capturable. Kind of amusing to think that ion cannons used to be so strong that while they served as a good defense, you'd never get them because it would be a waste of time to leave it up =p

[Hearteater]

Ion Cannons are one of the few things that give high cap ships an advantage.  Anything scaling on number of ships in the system is bad for high caps.

If you want to make Ion Cannons more dangerous, first given them the Turret hull type so they take 10% damage from Raid Starships.  Now you are much more likely to have to deal with them.  I think that and adding 2 shots to their volley is likely to make them dangerous enough without being ridiculous.

[chemical_art]

Ion Cannons are one of the few things that give high cap ships an advantage.  Anything scaling on number of ships in the system is bad for high caps.

that gives high cap units an advantage over mid caps, but since low cap ships don't have to worry about ion cannons at all, they still hold the highest advantage.

I like this change if low cap fleetships lose their ion immunity.

[Hearteater]

Ignoring low caps losing their immunity (which I don't necessarily feel is a good idea), this change would also massively benefit player Ions over AI Ions.  This change would makes the Ion into a "kill x% of opposing blob" which, I don't know about you, I'd love to see when 20k AI ships show up.  Compared that to what would happen by my 600 ship blob.

Ions are simple to boost to dangerous value without a complex mechanic.  Tough them to make relevant (otherwise they just get raiding away trivially) and up their shots.  The Ion Eye is a good example of how scaling up an Ion would work.

[chemical_art]

Ignoring low caps losing their immunity (which I don't necessarily feel is a good idea), this change would also massively benefit player Ions over AI Ions.  This change would makes the Ion into a "kill x% of opposing blob" which, I don't know about you, I'd love to see when 20k AI ships show up.  Compared that to what would happen by my 600 ship blob.

what if the number of shots were capped, either with a hard cap of max shots or a soft cap of linear increases in rate of fire needing a increasing number of ships.

This way, while players may benefit more, their power won't go off the scale.

keep in mind for players to get ion cannons, if they take them they suffer casualties in taking it and then have to build their defense around it to keep the frail buildings alive. if they buy them, they have to pay very high amounts. an mk iii costs almost as much as a super fort, and the iv costs almost twice as much, yet neither are nearly as threatening as the fort. also keep in mind if the player can buy the ions, the ai can and frequently will as well.

[Hearteater]

So change the Ion by adding a more complicated mechanic, then add additional rules to keep this mechanic from being abuseble.  What's the problem with the current Ion Cannon that giving it a 8, 12 or 16 shot salvo couldn't fix?  That's just changing on number, no special coding needed.

[RCIX]

Ion cannons now are always going to be "curbstomp them first because they're too hard to deal with while clearing a planet" or "useless annoyance not worth defending". That's why.

[KDR_11k]

I think it was 2 sec reload last I checked, that probably depends on the selected ship caps and I usually play on normal.

[chemical_art]

Ion cannons now are always going to be "curbstomp them first because they're too hard to deal with while clearing a planet" or "useless annoyance not worth defending". That's why.

Pretty much this.

ion cannons are hardly simple now anyway, since it is fairly arbitrary the cut off between low cap and not low cap and their rate of fire is based on caps. it is not any more simpler then the idea that 'the more enemy ships in system, the faster they fire'

rof is based on caps. on ultra low caps it is 16 seconds.

[Hearteater]

Ion cannons now are always going to be "curbstomp them first because they're too hard to deal with while clearing a planet" or "useless annoyance not worth defending". That's why.

So there is a ROF value X that is "curbstomp them first because they're too hard to deal with while clearing a planet", but subtract one from X and they become "useless annoyance not worth defending"?

[chemical_art]

So there is a ROF value X that is "curbstomp them first because they're too hard to deal with while clearing a planet", but subtract one from X and they become "useless annoyance not worth defending"?

not exactly.

if you send in only a few ships that the ion cannon can target, it is a curbstomp. if you send in many ships (by player, but not ai standards) that the ion cannon can target, it is a great annoyance for they intentionally target the most expensive things.

if you send in the many different kinds of ships, including low cap fleetships, that the ion cannon cannot fire, then it is useless. if the ai is sending modest numbers of ships by ai standards, the ion cannon is useless in its relative damage compared to the hassle of defending them.

the difference between ion cannons and other mostly irreplaceable defensive structures is that it is very frail and doesn't impact large battles much. super forts and inhibitors are very tough. black hole and radar dampeners provide global non dps benefits.

ion cannons are frail, expensive, and are weak compared to other defenses of its class.

[KDR_11k]

Also players need to operate inside AI territory much longer than the AI needs to operate in Human territory.

[Hearteater]

ion cannons are frail, expensive, and are weak compared to other defenses of its class.

And this proposal does nothing for the first two.

Rather than a weird dynamic ROF, I'd rather work be put into allowing Ions to hit Insta-Kill Immune targets so they can put their Engine Damage to use.  Because low-cap ships might be immune to insta-kill itself, but 60 ED a second is no joke.  Even Starships would notice if they strayed in system too long.