Ion cannons - remove AI wave penalty

[Spikey00]

Currently, any ion cannon beyond MK2 will amplify any AI waves sent to its host planet; that is simply the problem.  It is beyond me for whoever would want a simple wave of 200 ships to turn into 800 from a MK3 ion cannon, and especially if it were an early counterwave of a higher MK.  In the current circumstance, any and every III-V ion cannon is melted into crystal and metal as soon as possible, regardless of where it is situated (border, inner) because of counterwaves. 

I would like for this attribute to be removed completely, as ion cannons serve absolutely no purpose player-side because the penalty is simply far too punishing for them to be left around.  Unless there's an argument against this (in which case I would be surprised, or assuming waves are already at 2002/maximum ships), I really don't see anyone keeping these double-edged structures about.

[x4000]

Not going to change it.  This is a disincentive from using ion cannons on the front lines.  And from players using ion cannons in general, as I don't really want them to have a ton of them.  This increase is only on the planet the ion cannon is on, so if you have that on a non-frontlines planet the penalty is actually nothing, anyway.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I agree with Spikey. After some experimenting i never even consider keeping an ion cannon up...  The I is useless and the others arnt worth the wave penalties.  The penalties are so overwhelmingly harsh that having them be capturable seems pointless, especially considering the extra casualties you have to incur capturing it.

it's not like theyre even that useful as a defensive weapon owing to the number of AI ships that attack even in normal sized wave.

it might be nice to have on a non frontlines planet but even then you have to deal with counterattack waves. And you have to hope that no waves get launched against that planet while you're capturing or neutering every connected planet... assuming you can afford to do that!

[x4000]

Yep, which is why most of the time you should kill it, not capture it.

[Lancefighter]

looks like keith was wrong 

[x4000]

Apparently I missed something -- not sure about what.

[Mánagarmr]

I'm actually gonna go with Chris on this. Removing the wave penalty easily makes Ion cannons an impenetrable wall on any choke world.

[Lancefighter]

haha not to worry:
last night we were discussing the implications of removing the wave bonus, and keith was of the opinion that if you were asked outright to remove them, you probably wouldnt argue about it.


as for impenetrable walls.. I believe i also asked keith about hybrid-starship wolfpacks, but he thought they might be too difficult for the player

[zebramatt]

Ion cannons are great for defence!

[x4000]

Ah, gotcha.  And yeah, there is some stuff I have cooking for use against impenetrable walls, but those aren't ready yet.

[Spikey00]

Ion cannons disappear to enemy fire when they aren't covered with a forcefield, and they're highly prioritized; as well, a destroyed enemy ship per four seconds on the player side is nothing because in opposed to the player in having to waltz around an AI planet to destroy guard posts, ships and such, the AI essentially goes for harvesters and the command station, leaving less time for attrition.

Again, a counterwave that is multiplied by the penalty means no planet is safe, and may mean a game over anyways.  Ever had a wave of a thousand cloaked ships in your inner worlds with your military far from range?  Those stealth ships will spread out and create unimaginable pain after destroying the ion cannon in one second.


If the penalty can't be removed, I would suggest that ion cannons be simply a non-captureable.  It's silly of them to be an immediate gratification from "salvage this for X resources, congratulations."  Additionally, new players which are unaware of the penalty are going to be suffering from this, as usual.

[x4000]

I've said my piece on it -- I hear what you're saying, but I simply don't agree.

I think the likelihood of new players capturing an ion cannon and running into trouble is pretty low, as most new players wouldn't capture one to start with.  And it says what the wave modifier against the planet is pretty prominently now.

[Ozymandiaz]

I think the wave penalty is ok enough on them. After all if you really want to use Mk III, IV and V ion cannons you should probably gate raid the systems anyways

However I usually build some in my Home planet from the trader, and use spare resources on them. Just in case

[Arcain_One]

I think the likelihood of new players capturing an ion cannon and running into trouble is pretty low, as most new players wouldn't capture one to start with.

I quite disagree with this. If any of them are like me then they would read that it is capturable (like the ARS) and would want to use it the same way the AI is. The inexperience is that they will probably over look or under estimate the wave modifier and over estimate the power of the Ion Cannon, as the player almost always has lower MK than the AI, MK 1 Ion Cannon will not be as devastating for the player as it was with the AI.

I think the wave penalty should be lessened or put at a fixed rate ( like +200 to all waves to this planet [is this possible/practical?])

[superking]

the counterwave gaurdposts make keeping them a massive liablity, while they benefits of keeping them are paltry.. I see why they should carry the wave penalty, but I think as is the extremely high cost of high MK cannons- which makes scrapping them so profitabe- and the hefy wave multiplier- which makes them so dangerous to keep even away from the front due to warp counterattacks- is completely disproportionate to their low combat power.

There is no element of decision- from MK III upward scrapping them is always optimal because the profit is huge and keeping them is too dangerous.

I suppose I am lobbying for those wave multipliers to be shaved back a bit and the costs being reduced so scrapping them is less optimal, so there is an element of decision there