Author Topic: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet  (Read 4711 times)

Offline Cinth

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2014, 01:24:20 pm »
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Maybe the new 20% bonus from the Spire City Hub to salvage was too much?
That's not the problem.  You can't put a city on your HW.  Wing is getting the flat 50% from tanking there.

That's not his salvage issue, but it is mine. :)

I think both numbers are too high. The HW one is way too high. The Spire City bonus is also too high considering it sits on top of whatever you're getting from the command center already. I had it at 32% (Military Command III), and 32% of a FS exo is an awful lot of metal.

On the HW, 50% scrap means that if you can fight there, rebuilding anything you lost is really easy. You don't need to have much in the way of income from other systems when you can harvest so much scrap.
You can actually get 50% salvage rate with a Log 3 and a FS City.  I think the value left for a lot of high end ships is just to high.  I'd bring down Golems, Spirecraft, Dire Guardians, and other AI special ships.  Down probably to around where a MK V Zenith SS would bring in.  That way those Exos might not as easily cap out salvage and it doesn't hurt normal waves and such (I haven't seen anyone complain about salvage from normal waves being to high).
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Tridus

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2014, 01:32:46 pm »
Yeah, lowering the amount you get from those ships would work too.

The 18,000 mk IV fighter wave brought in a lot of salvage, but it also did a tremendous amount of damage. I didn't find the scrap out of line with how much stuff it blew up, the way I do with exos.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2014, 01:40:38 pm »
It's been my impression since salvage was introduced.   Exo waves give to much and there have been adjustments along those lines ever since (like Golems only giving 10%).  Fleet and normal SS don't feel like they are out of line, and the AI does better about not throwing those ships away.  Exo waves plow through to their target regardless of what stands in the way, so we players can abuse this with choke points.  Exo waves equal guaranteed salvage at that point.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2014, 01:43:18 pm »
Exo waves plow through to their target regardless of what stands in the way, so we players can abuse this with choke points.  Exo waves equal guaranteed salvage at that point.
"Looking at this battle, you might see a Hunter-Killer being torn to pieces by photon lances.  I, instead, see a MkII Radar Jammer being towed into position."
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 01:46:25 pm »
Exo waves plow through to their target regardless of what stands in the way, so we players can abuse this with choke points.  Exo waves equal guaranteed salvage at that point.
"Looking at this battle, you might see a Hunter-Killer being torn to pieces by photon lances.  I, instead, see a MkII Radar Jammer being towed into position."

Then you aren't looking at anything I have done.  IF you were looking in my direction, you would see dozens of Hunter-Killers being shredded by photon lances (and much much more) and that building way back there?  It's the radar jammer.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 01:48:03 pm »
Then you aren't looking at anything I have done.  IF you were looking in my direction, you would see dozens of Hunter-Killers being shredded by photon lances (and much much more) and that building way back there?  It's the radar jammer.
If I were looking at one of your battles I would just see a solid cloud of purple and green forcefields with periodic flashes of light coming from within.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 01:49:52 pm »
Then you aren't looking at anything I have done.  IF you were looking in my direction, you would see dozens of Hunter-Killers being shredded by photon lances (and much much more) and that building way back there?  It's the radar jammer.
If I were looking at one of your battles I would just see a solid cloud of purple and green forcefields with periodic flashes of light coming from within.
ROFL.

Edit: The FF cloud is NOT how I had them set up.  It is how they were when I loaded up this morning.
Even reloading that save had them set up somewhere different yet again.  :/
Had to go back 4 auto-saves to find one with them right.  Not cool.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 01:57:28 pm by Cinth »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline nitpik

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2014, 04:30:32 pm »
Coming to a similar conclusion, though not as extreme a case (yet ...)

My most recent game that is almost over, I set one AI to vengeful / bouncer, and left the other on random. Both diff 8 (for extra wormhole guardposts!). Picked a chokepoint world for my HW, and had seven planets behind the choke that I cleared right away. Unlocked Mil III and Econ II, and put all the econs behind the HW. I did NOT originally plan to abuse matter converters, and thought I'd need all the energy.

Every time I ran out of resources, I could jump a planet or two with starships in transports, kill a few vengeful guardposts, and tada!

It didn't take long for my HW to get two Mass drivers, armour booster, armour inhibiter, Radar jammer, Zenith Power generator, etc... I ended up building the superfortress on a different planet I wanted to defend, just because nothing was denting the HW. Right now it's near the end of the game, I have built two spire cities, all the merc fighters, bombers, missile and beam frigates, and have built a Mk IV ion cannon because there was literally nothing else to spend my metal on.

Now I'm tempted to try the same setup but ignore the 7 safe planets, and just rely on converters. Not sure it would work, but would be fun to find out  :)

I'm not sure IF this is a problem (the setup is a bit strange), or if it is, what exactly the problem is. But feeling joy when you find out that the planet one hop away from your HW has 13 vengeful guardposts on it seems a bit .... wrong :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:32:25 pm by nitpik »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2014, 05:11:04 pm »
Agreed on making the disparity between HW and non HW command stations not as high. (HW should still be at worst tied with the best, maybe make HW command station unlock foldouts contribute to efficiency?) This will likely mean making the disparity between Mk. I and Mk. III command stations less severe as well, which is also a good idea IMO.

I also do think some sort of sub-linear scaling of salvage droppsd over base value is still in order, even with the planetary salvage caps. However, it should be less severe decrease than the original iteration of the sub-linear salvage scaling, thanks to that planetary salvage cap doing part of the job of keeping salvage from going out of control.

EDIT: I wouldn't like to see units in an exo be special cased by the salvage logic, that seems a bit "dirty"

EDIT2: Also, reducing the disparity between AI reprisal waves and normal waves I think is needed too, especially on mid (7-8.x) difficulty levels.

It is worth mentioning that Fallen Spire is supposed to have a very different "feel" than the usual AI War experience (aka. Less "last resistance against overwhelming odds through subterfuge and guerilla warfare" and more "Two giant armies constantly killing stuff, making things go boom, and smacking into each other or heavily defended positions"). Maybe spire city stuff was overbuffed, IDK.

I wouldn't mind some way of making metal to energy converters less "stackable", though it is worth noting that the energy use increase of turrets has indeed made energy relevant again in "normal" games, at least in my experience.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 05:14:21 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Cinth

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2014, 05:24:02 pm »
50% is achievable in 2 ways.

EDIT: I wouldn't like to see units in an exo be special cased by the salvage logic, that seems a bit "dirty"

I'm not suggesting they be special cased because they are in an Exo, just reduce the amount the drop in general.  The units I mentioned usually don't venture into player space unless in an Exo.  All I'm suggesting is that superweapon classed ships don't leave supersized salvage. 

Normal waves and CPAs don't give a whole lot of salvage value even if tanked on a HW.  I didn't see a reason to hit that any harder when most of the comments have been around Exos and fixed attacks that can't evade a choke.  Bringing down the individual contributions of the components of those seems to be a good route to go.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2014, 05:34:54 pm »
Regarding the disparity between AI reprisal waves and normal waves I feel that the AI's salvage effeciency was over buffed last time it was changed.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2014, 05:38:09 pm »
(Sorry for double post. On mobile, hard to quote and edit)

@Cinth, right, that is why I was suggesting sublinear salvage, it mostly leaves "normal" stuff mostly untouched, but brings the "huge stuff" more into line.

Note, this of course should be both ways; AI would get less from your large stuff just like you would get less from theirs.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2014, 05:41:50 pm »
@Cinth, right, that is why I was suggesting sublinear salvage, it mostly leaves "normal" stuff mostly untouched, but brings the "huge stuff" more into line.

Note, this of course should be both ways; AI would get less from your large stuff just like you would get less from theirs.
So looking at different proposed solutions to the problem.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 10:46:48 am »
To add another data point on energy, in my current Ride the Lightning Fallen Spire 9/9 game I am now at 44.09.44 up to a maximum cap of 18,290,000 metal storage and tanking most waves on a level 1 spire city. (1093 AIP, 49/120 planets controlled, 11 spire cities, two of which L1)

After the last major attack hitting two different spire cities at the same time (exowave on one, regular waves another) I was running around 107,000 metal/second salvage when the last ship died (and had thus been receiving millions over the duration of the battle), and still managed to run my stores down to a total of around a million and a half metal as I replaced fleet and defense casualties and repaired.

To support my growing fleet and vast distributed defenses, I am currently running 103 energy collectors with a floating balance of 500,000-1,000,000 energy to ensure that I don't get blackouts during small AI incursions wiping out a handful of stations before I contain them. I could possibly get by with one or two score fewer energy collectors, but it would be much more dangerous. Even as is, fully half my planets are completely without any sort of local defenses.

I have unlocked mark three economic stations early in the game (for extra energy primarily, though the metal increase is also good), and harvester upgrades will come soon because the baseline metal income is so very useful to smooth out the resource flow. At this point I could subsist entirely upon salvage without either economic station upgrades or harvesters, but it would significantly have increased risks during the early game.


So where am I going with all this? I don't know how it is ideally supposed to be balanced right now, and I realize that this approach, taking Keith's challenge and playing AI War with Fallen Spire as a conquest game, is not all that relevant to the balancing of a more normal game of AI war, but I do feel the need to mention that the system seems to be in a fairly good place where salvage/energy balancing is concerned when the game is played that way, both with respects to the sources of metal/energy income and expenditure. (The only thing that is lacking is the ability to build more forts, eating up even more energy, as forts' per-galaxy limits seem oriented towards games with significantly less territory conquered and smaller regular enemy waves. :D)

Perhaps spire cities should give less salvage, though it doesn't seem overwhelming to me compared to the metal expenditures. One benefit of doing that would be increasing the value of the strategic choice of not maximizing reactors/shipyards and instead building a few extra habitation centres for their sweet +1000 metal baseline income (~250,000 energy), something that right now is largely counter-indicated. But then again, perhaps it is meant to be that way. I certainly would hate to see spire cities lose their salvage buff entirely, as that would significantly increase the time to recover from attacks thus the amount of time spent and fast-forwarding at high speed while waiting. Perhaps +10% or +15% would be more appropriate?

I will respectfully move, however, that anybody suggesting a galactic cap on converters should have his mouth washed with soap. :P
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 11:17:36 am by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Impossible to lose the game as long as you hold 1 planet
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2014, 01:51:59 am »
I'm not going to get into the econemy aspect as far as metal goes, since I usually play with 300% econ because I'm REALLY lazy and don't like to wait. But as far a super tanky HW goes, I don't see much of an issue with it. Turning your HW into an unbeatable fortress world is both an interesting strategy and a very powerful one at times. While it's defensive ability, especially with the addition of Alt-Progress bases appearing on it as well as Station Foldouts, is second only to a Spire City, it is also by far the most important world in your entire game. All it would take is for one lucky/determined AI unit to get in range of your HW Command Station and it is over. The game has ALWAYS been impossible to lose as long as you can hold one planet, and that planet has always been your HW. You can lose every other planet, all without technically losing the game. But your HW's loss is it, game over.

If Wingflier turned his HW into a nearly unbeatable fortress world, so be it. Its not a bug or bad game design here. Chokepoints have been a staple of the game since as long as I can recall, and I've been playing since just after Light of the Spire released. But as I said before, he has to be EXTREMELY careful here. Because I KNOW you can't win an attrition war with the AI. Time only makes Exos stronger, and I've seen Exos powerful enough to annihilate entire player fleets and every single possible static defense at the same time, and those were 4/10 Fallen Spire at just 7/7 difficulty. It's an interesting strategy, but all it would take is just ONE AI unit to get into range, and it's all over then. Chokepoints have always worked like that. "As long as I can hold this point, the AI can't beat me". But just turtling behind a seemingly invincible wall CAN NOT win you the game. Because sooner or later you are going to need to either get that final shard, or engage the AI HWs yourself. And then its going to be the power of his mobile forces that matters, not the strength of his chokepoint. And it takes A LOT of K to make a HW into a chokepoint, and/or Alt-Progress Champions. Sooner or later the AI will get mad enough that it sends Motherships and H/Ks in double digits. Those forces, along with everything that comes with it, will not care about your OMDs, your Radar Dampener, or even Superforts, let alone any normal defenses.