Impossible and cool Dual AI combos

[Coppermantis]

Honestly the Core has always been surprisingly kinda weak.  I always thought of it as the "final boss" AI, but testing has revealed it to be a pushover compared to the technologists.

IMO, the Core should get a serious power upgrade.  I want there to be a "AI type that is harder than all others, period", and Core seems the natural fit.

Well, with Dual AI, we can sort of make things like that. Like, imagine a Core+Raid Engine AI. That would be fun. Right now, though, The Core just seems to be a good modifier to increase the difficulty of an existing AI by giving it Mk. V ships, rather than being a hard AI on its own. I played vs. The Core recentlyish and it wasn't really noticeable.

[LaughingThesaurus]

What if you just gave the AI 100% more reinforcements and waves? Up the handicap and make it tougher. If they just need a number buff then that might be a way to simulate it.

[MaxAstro]

Well, with Dual AI, we can sort of make things like that. Like, imagine a Core+Raid Engine AI. That would be fun. Right now, though, The Core just seems to be a good modifier to increase the difficulty of an existing AI by giving it Mk. V ships, rather than being a hard AI on its own. I played vs. The Core recentlyish and it wasn't really noticeable.

The problem is that as things stand, Core + whatever will probably be weaker than Technologist + the same whatever.  And I really feel like Core on its own should be a monster.  Like I said, when I first started playing AI War I had the impression that Core was supposed to be "the hardest" or basically "All the stops pulled out", especially with it being the bottom AI on the AI list.

My opinion is that if you select The Core as your opponent, you should be in for a whuppin', not a... surprisingly easy game.

[Qatu]

 Just want to note that Lazy AI option + Zenith Trader + Ancient Shadows (champion + tons of rewards from nebulas) make many things possible. For example, i recently completed a game vs 2 Scorched Earth at level 10 with Lazy AI+Zenith Trader+Champion in a bit less than 10 hours on a 50 map planet, i only destroyed 2 planets in the entire game besides the AI homeworlds.

[Kahuna]

Thief / Speed Racer

OOooooh SNAP!.. This is a good one! So gonna have to try this at some point

[Kahuna]

Honestly the Core has always been surprisingly kinda weak.

Yes if it's alone. That's because it has 0,5/0,5 wave/reinforcement multipliers... but when you combine it with some other AI type.. ooooh snap.. simply combining it with Vanilla would DOUBLE the multipliers (to 1,0/1,0).

I want there to be a "AI type that is harder than all others, period", and Core seems the natural fit.

Well now we have the Dual AI system so combine The Core with pretty much ANYTHING.. and boom you got your pain!

The problem is that as things stand, Core + whatever will probably be weaker than Technologist + the same whatever.

No^^

[Kahuna]

Just want to note that Lazy AI option + Zenith Trader + Ancient Shadows (champion + tons of rewards from nebulas) make many things possible. For example, i recently completed a game vs 2 Scorched Earth at level 10 with Lazy AI+Zenith Trader+Champion in a bit less than 10 hours on a 50 map planet, i only destroyed 2 planets in the entire game besides the AI homeworlds.

Yeah that's lazy AI for ya. From what I've heard it's basically a sandbox or tutorial.

[Lord Fiddlemeister]

A1 and A2: Shadow Master + Special Forces Guard Post. Extra patrols + cloaking = OMG HOW MANY OF THEM WERE THERE!?

A1 Neinzul Nester + Raid Engine, A2 Raid Engine + Support. Never get a break from the constant waves of ships charging you.

A1 Fortress Baron + Fortress King, A2 Raid Engine + Technologist Sledge. A1 would be a tough nut to crack, especially when backed up by A2.


Sounds like some Fun combinations can be made

[keith.lamothe]

A1 and A2: Shadow Master + Special Forces Guard Post

Shadow Master / Special Forces Captain?

Owwwww....


Shadow Master / Special Forces Captain // Speed Racer / Special Forces Captain

That would be potentially even worse.  The first wave you could see coming, but it would be on you in moments of attacking an important planet, and even the theoretically "slow" ships like bombards would be right on you.  And while you're dealing with them the cloaked ones would come in and hit you with no warning.

Combining Everything + SFC would be really nasty too, because it would always have its beloved TDLs and SBSs (and now LTFs).

[TechSY730]

On the topic of "The Core", keep in mind, the AI pays double for mk. V ships, which means that the net "strength" is actually 0.5 (from the attack multiplier) * 0.5 (for the cost of Mk. V ships for the AI) * 5.0 (for strength of Mk. V relative to Mk. I) = .25 * 5 = 1.25. Not that huge of an increase, and weaker than the technologist "attribute" 1 (no modification to the attack multiplier for just being a technologist) * .6 (for the cost of Mk. IV ships for the AI) * 4.0 (for the strength of Mk. IV relative to Mk. I) = 2.4. So yes, "average net strength" wise, the technologists are harder.

Actually, even if you remove the penalties to attack and defense for the core, the "net strength" is still only .5 * 5 = 2.5, aka, not that much harder than the technologists. The per mark costs actually do a good enough job regulating strength for the AI that additional per AI type multipliers on top of it aren't really needed for The Core.

Thus, I would propose just removing the attack and defense penalties for the core. If you worry about too much "grindiness", then you can instead set the multipliers to 1.0/.96, which would put offensive net strength to 2.5, but defensive strength to 2.4 (the same as technologist).



Also, do the multipliers for wave size per mark applied on top of relative strength (which would go up due to higher marks)? Would that mean the all AI types are "double paying" for higher marks in waves?

[Kahuna]

So AIs pay as much for Mark IV ships as they do for Mark I ships? AIs only pay more for Mark V ships.... ?
..what..
I have no idea what you just said

The costs are

Mark	Cost
I	1
II	2
III	3
IV	4
V	5

You made it sound like

Mark	Cost
I	1
II	1
III	1
IV	1
V	5

lets combine Raid Engine with The Core and Technologist Homeworlder
The Core
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 0,5 & 0,5

Technologist Homeworlder
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 1,00 & 1,00

Raid Engine
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 1,00 & 1,00

The Core / Raid Engine
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 1,00 & 1,00
---> sends Mark V ship waves with 1,00 strength

Technologist Homeworlder / Raid Engine
Wave & Reinforce Multipliers: 1,00 & 1,00
---> sends Mark IV ship waves with 1,00 strength

How is technologist harder?

EDIT:
Apparently common sense doesn't apply in this case.
I just created 2 games. First vs The Core + x and Technologist Homeguy +x. The Core sent 27 ships and 2 starships.. Technologist sent 42 or 47 ships and 3 starships.
---> The Core AI is broken and bugged. WEIRD STUFF

[keith.lamothe]

@Kahuna: the base strength (and thus cost) is indeed 1/2/3/4/5.  But when sending waves or reinforcements (but not when buying Special Forces or Strategic Reserve or whatever ships, and exos use something totally different for pricing) the AI also gets another multiplier to how many ships it actually gets:

If it's mk 1, multiply by 1.5 (so it actually gets more at this point)
If it's mk 2, multiply by 0.9
If mk 3, by 0.7
If mk 4, by 0.6
If mk 5, by 0.5

It's an old rule, and maybe it can go away, but I don't think it would be a good idea at this exact moment.

[Kahuna]

HMMMmmmmmm..
ok!

[TechSY730]

Right. What I was saying is that he cost for Mk. V ships stops the core from getting too out of hand just like costs for Mk. IV ships keep the technologists from getting too out of hand.

As such, the additional attack and defense penalty for the core AI type is redundant and is an "over nerf". The per mark costs would keep the core in line if the attack and defense size penalties went away.

[keith.lamothe]

"The Core" AI will be getting a buff, since it seems so desired