Author Topic: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...  (Read 11323 times)

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2015, 08:10:13 pm »
Like everything else, the proper Golem works wonders  :P

Immunity to Range Reduction is a wonderful thing.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2015, 05:46:18 am »
OMD and Spirecraft? Sweet! Also, give a glimpse at the spider guard post. "Spider"? Maybe something else. Anyway, the guard post that makes big holes in big things. I think it's able to attack low cap fleetships, like SStealth BShips and the like (5-cap and ion/oneshot-immune). I think the spider and the OMD have different target mechanisms, and maybe they deserve a merging. I feel this (and the one-shot immunity) deserve(s) a better readability from players. Figuring out what's immune or targetable by OMD or Spider GP is rather unclear.

I know the one you're thinking of, the Arachnid post.  I remember those because I hate them with a passion, they're like "OMD-Lite"...

You get it. Arachnid adjective is for "big holes in big things", spider adjective is for engine damage (the sniper-like turret, the fleet bot and the guardian) and widow is for paralysis (minefield and golem, at least).

So, how things are going? Do you continue AT's hacking? Did you choose a new target among the MF suggestions?
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2015, 05:37:11 pm »
So, how things are going? Do you continue AT's hacking? Did you choose a new target among the MF suggestions?

Going well, squashed the AT's not refreshing their contained strength bug, moving forward on to building the alternatives to their current lolDPS levels of damage. :)  Should see those posted today or tomorrow.

Yup, hacking targets acquired.  Next set I think will be (subject to change at any time pending exciting new ideas/things that annoy me cutting in line/general inscrutable modding whims):

1. Rebel Colony Death Rebalancing -- This should be quick as a first draft is just adjusting the hit to AIP/AIP floor.  Toying with the idea of making how hard it hits scale with difficulty level or MF intensity so that the bite is either more consistent across difficulty (no instant "YOU LOSE!" on high difficulty, just "YOU SUFFER!"), or the player has some input into how much risk they want via MF intensity -- that would let the MF scale on another axis as well as just how many can spawn, which seems to always be a very small number.

I also remember someone in an old discussion mentioning they wish that RCs beyond the first actually had some benefit, I might let each additional one give a bit of extra energy so long as it's held.  I would ultimately like to add a cooldown or recharge on the cloaking, but that may not make it into the first draft as that will take some experimenting.

2. Marauder/Resistance Spawns -- I think I will make their spawn amounts scale with intensity to complement their frequency of appearing scaling (which seems to not get triggered that much regardless, not surprising as a bunch of factors have to line up at the right moment for them to appear).  Intensity 10 should definitely be MOAR!

3. Beachheads -- Many interesting things to try here.  This one will likely keep me busy for a bit.

Somewhere in there a peek at the OMD situation to see if anything weird pops out at me about how it's targeting/not targeting.  Depending on what I see, this one might be just kicked to Mantis with a list of "these ships need to be flagged for OMD murdertargets".

Definitely want to look at the Neinzul Roaming Enclave spawning as well somewhere after that, see if I can't tame their numbers a bit on lower intensities so they're not so overwhelming if you choose settings that aren't intentionally "I want them to be a dominating factor in this game".  Still thinking about what could possibly be done with Wardens, something will probably come just came to mind ("The humans have imprisoned our mineral friends!  Liberate them from their storehouse oppression!  Also structural remains are litter, let's clean up that pollution!").

Lots of other juicy stuff in here in addition to the short list that jumped to mind above (thanks again to everyone who joined the discussion!), but I don't want to declare a firm roadmap farther out than that as I am still exploring the codebase and settling in to it, especially as working in C# is proving to be hit or miss on whether a given class will recompile after injecting changes.  Those classes still require me to fall back to MSIL handcrafting, which may cramp things that hit them, though I have some possible workarounds in mind if that gets in the way of something that would be too obnoxious to do in MSIL.

This thread (and others, I routinely trawl older balance/idea threads) will be something I periodically look back at when I am looking for more inspiration (Golems Medium, I *will* make you interesting someday.  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday.)

Back to messing with ATs so I can get that out the door for people to play around with who wish to be my human test subjects.  :D
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Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2015, 06:32:32 pm »
I also remember someone in an old discussion mentioning they wish that RCs beyond the first actually had some benefit, I might let each additional one give a bit of extra energy so long as it's held.  I would ultimately like to add a cooldown or recharge on the cloaking, but that may not make it into the first draft as that will take some experimenting.
Multiples should also increase the ship cap for their ships. Like Ancient Shadows Nebula Faction Starbase Foldouts.

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Definitely want to look at the Neinzul Roaming Enclave spawning as well somewhere after that, see if I can't tame their numbers a bit on lower intensities so they're not so overwhelming if you choose settings that aren't intentionally "I want them to be a dominating factor in this game".
Does their cap already scale with intensity? If so, maybe make it proportional to intensity^2 or something ?

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Still thinking about what could possibly be done with Wardens, something will probably come just came to mind ("The humans have imprisoned our mineral friends!  Liberate them from their storehouse oppression!  Also structural remains are litter, let's clean up that pollution!").
Have them...
  • Build "aggro modules" on resource extraction points?
  • Feed on orbiting scrap?
Quote
This thread (and others, I routinely trawl older balance/idea threads) will be something I periodically look back at when I am looking for more inspiration (Golems Medium, I *will* make you interesting someday.  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday.)
I would do this:
  • Broken Golems (Normal): As Broken Golems (Easy). Intensity affects how many there are.
  • Broken Golems (Rotting): Brings back golem self-attrition. Intensity affects how many there are. May be combined with the above, in which case there will be even more broken golems, but some of them will be rotting.
  • Exo-Wave (Broken Golems): Split this into a separate setting. Intensity affects exo-wave strength/frequency/whatever as normal. Might also want to only trigger when you actually have golems (broken or otherwise)
And then the Botnet has (Normal) and (Rotting) options, and uses the same ExoWave (Broken Golems) thing, but has a rule that you can't combine normal and rotting.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2015, 06:51:01 pm »
Preservation Warden Idea passing by.

If the point is to mess with player's metal, just targeting harvesters is not enough. The idea would be for the wardens to build a sort of low-firepower, short-range guard post on the cleaned metal deposit that blocks harvester's rebuilding (regular GPosts already do that) and has a bit more health and armor than an average GPost. The player have to militarily claim back the metal deposits, and a lone distant planet harassed by wardens can become cluttered by Neinzul Preservation Wards, unable to collect  metal without military assistance. Radar dampening and sniper immunity would be required for the wards.

Sorry, I'm tired.
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Offline Red.Queen

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2015, 08:58:54 pm »
<twiddle thumbs>  ILSpy takes a while to update the indentation on 31K lines... <sigh>  Don't make me have to break out the 1M line raw MSIL to do this, I just want to insert the Knockback flag and laugh at the resulting pew-pew chaos...

Time to amuse myself on the forum while I wait.

Multiples should also increase the ship cap for their ships. Like Ancient Shadows Nebula Faction Starbase Foldouts.

A possibility, though it may necessitate revamping their stats as they weren't balanced for higher caps.  It would also have a knock-on effect on the MF Resistance spawns.

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Does their cap already scale with intensity? If so, maybe make it proportional to intensity^2 or something ?

I forget, my vague memory is either no, or not that much.  Intensity mostly affects the spawning frequency for virtually all the minor factions.  Cap often is static, intensity just indirectly affects how fast you hit the cap and how stubbornly the population will stay at/near cap no matter how hard you try to cull them.

Quote
Have them...
  • Build "aggro modules" on resource extraction points?
  • Feed on orbiting scrap?

I like.  Having them build structures might be an issue, how the Hybrid construction stuff kind of disappeared hints at trouble there.  But... It's probably feasible to have them look for resource nodes and then park themselves on top of them to guard them from you and keep Rebuilders from replacing the Harvesters.  That'd produce a similar effect ultimately.

Although there's still construction logic in the game for the Warp Relay plot.  Hm.  Something to look at.  I'm picturing the Wardens building "Neinzul Terraformers" which are basically reversed Harvesters, each one drains metal as long as it's there.

Having them clean up litter orbiting scrap would also give them a slight positive side effect too if they pass through an enemy planet while you're fighting, assuming the AI doesn't insta-collect scrap.  Haven't looked at that part yet.  That would be fun, it seems like most MFs try to have some combination of positive and negative, the pure negative stuff is mostly left to Plots and some of the AI Options.

Quote
I would do this:
  • Broken Golems (Normal): As Broken Golems (Easy). Intensity affects how many there are.
  • Broken Golems (Rotting): Brings back golem self-attrition. Intensity affects how many there are. May be combined with the above, in which case there will be even more broken golems, but some of them will be rotting.
  • Exo-Wave (Broken Golems): Split this into a separate setting. Intensity affects exo-wave strength/frequency/whatever as normal. Might also want to only trigger when you actually have golems (broken or otherwise)
And then the Botnet has (Normal) and (Rotting) options, and uses the same ExoWave (Broken Golems) thing, but has a rule that you can't combine normal and rotting.

Wasn't the self-attrition thing for the Golems almost universally disliked?  That was before my time, just going off of what I've run across in old threads.

"Rotting" makes me think of different forms of being broken and what it could mean.  What if on Medium, Golems couldn't be repaired after the initial activation, like the Spirecraft Medium setting?  The humans manage to patch them up and jump-start them once, but they're so far gone that they won't survive more attempts to duct-tape them back together.  Energy and metal cost would be normal, no Exo, and either no or a very small AIP bump on activation (seems like the AI should still get a little irritated, especially if actions like opening ZReserves, Distribution Nodes, etc. bugs it, but I think I like +AIP more than most players so I may not be the best judge on that point).

I've seen a lot of requests in old threads for Exos to only happen when you activate them, like the Exodian Blade and Fallen Spire stuff.  I think that makes sense and should be harmonized -- after all, if the mere presence of the uncaptured Exodian Blade on the map doesn't cause the AI to go apoplectic, then nothing should.

Scaling Exo frequency would probably be a good change, it seems like a lot of people think the Exos happen too often, and adjusting intensity would give them the ability to tune that.

Thanks Radiant Phoenix. :)

Preservation Warden Idea passing by.

If the point is to mess with player's metal, just targeting harvesters is not enough. The idea would be for the wardens to build a sort of low-firepower, short-range guard post on the cleaned metal deposit that blocks harvester's rebuilding (regular GPosts already do that) and has a bit more health and armor than an average GPost. The player have to militarily claim back the metal deposits, and a lone distant planet harassed by wardens can become cluttered by Neinzul Preservation Wards, unable to collect  metal without military assistance. Radar dampening and sniper immunity would be required for the wards.

Sorry, I'm tired.

Or have small FFs dropped on them to block your Engis/Rebuilders.  "Rocks are under glass, can't touch them!"  The mental picture that gives is pretty funny, little FF bubbles scattered around a planet with frustrated Engineers circling them.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2015, 09:33:43 pm »
Exo-on-repair would be a game I'd play.

No-repair-golems would be interesting, but not something I'd use as a staple.  Do note that the regenerator golem....regenerates.

Offline Chris_Stalis

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2015, 02:05:50 am »
I guess I'm rather weird but... what is up with all the hate for exos? I actually find the game boring without something triggering one of them. Also, what intensity do people play when they're doing exo-triggering factions? I keep them at 3 or 4, but I have cranked up to 6 when playing 7/7 games, just for the fun of it.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2015, 10:29:41 am »
I guess I'm rather weird but... what is up with all the hate for exos? I actually find the game boring without something triggering one of them. Also, what intensity do people play when they're doing exo-triggering factions? I keep them at 3 or 4, but I have cranked up to 6 when playing 7/7 games, just for the fun of it.

The exos always seem to arrive at the point in time at which I can either:
a) Handle the exo
b) Make an assault on a strategic target (super terminal hack, core world assault, or just a deep strike to take a planet that gives me a future launching pad)

Combine that with the fact that the exowaves build up simply because I have golems turned on, having nothing to do with whether or not I actually own one or more.  And yes, I play with the intensity down around 4.

Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2015, 01:52:48 pm »
Have them...
  • Build "aggro modules" on resource extraction points?
  • Feed on orbiting scrap?

I like.  Having them build structures might be an issue, how the Hybrid construction stuff kind of disappeared hints at trouble there.  But... It's probably feasible to have them look for resource nodes and then park themselves on top of them to guard them from you and keep Rebuilders from replacing the Harvesters.  That'd produce a similar effect ultimately.

Although there's still construction logic in the game for the Warp Relay plot.  Hm.  Something to look at.  I'm picturing the Wardens building "Neinzul Terraformers" which are basically reversed Harvesters, each one drains metal as long as it's there.
I called them aggro modules because I was picturing the problem being "the system is now covered in preserver swarms"

Quote
Having them clean up litter orbiting scrap would also give them a slight positive side effect too if they pass through an enemy planet while you're fighting, assuming the AI doesn't insta-collect scrap.  Haven't looked at that part yet.  That would be fun, it seems like most MFs try to have some combination of positive and negative, the pure negative stuff is mostly left to Plots and some of the AI Options.
Can they be made to eat ships out of scheduled reprisal waves?

Quote
Quote
I would do this:
  • Broken Golems (Normal): As Broken Golems (Easy). Intensity affects how many there are.
  • Broken Golems (Rotting): Brings back golem self-attrition. Intensity affects how many there are. May be combined with the above, in which case there will be even more broken golems, but some of them will be rotting.
  • Exo-Wave (Broken Golems): Split this into a separate setting. Intensity affects exo-wave strength/frequency/whatever as normal. Might also want to only trigger when you actually have golems (broken or otherwise)
And then the Botnet has (Normal) and (Rotting) options, and uses the same ExoWave (Broken Golems) thing, but has a rule that you can't combine normal and rotting.

Wasn't the self-attrition thing for the Golems almost universally disliked?  That was before my time, just going off of what I've run across in old threads.
I played back when it was around, but... I still don't use golems often at all. I don't like using irreplaceables.

Say... that gives me an idea: what if golems left a corpse when killed, that you could re-reanimate?
Quote
"Rotting" makes me think of different forms of being broken and what it could mean.  What if on Medium, Golems couldn't be repaired after the initial activation, like the Spirecraft Medium setting?  The humans manage to patch them up and jump-start them once, but they're so far gone that they won't survive more attempts to duct-tape them back together.  Energy and metal cost would be normal, no Exo, and either no or a very small AIP bump on activation (seems like the AI should still get a little irritated, especially if actions like opening ZReserves, Distribution Nodes, etc. bugs it, but I think I like +AIP more than most players so I may not be the best judge on that point).
I was going to use "crumbling", but then I remembered that broken golems are actually dead Zenith. :D

Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2015, 12:27:24 pm »
Spire civilians...

I dunno, to me they don't make much sense. I think having them (Not freeing, capturing) should count as a shipyard that increases AI progress every hour instead. The captured civilians of the AI lower the AI progress by 1 every hour, because they AI feels calm about keeping them from your grasp. The un-captured do nothing but make the AI agitated, which could lead to them destroying the structure, and the captured increase AIP by 1 every hour, but give you another spire shipyard point (Or give you spire frigates if you do not have the fallen spire active).

It just doesn't make sense that the AI would calm down when you have them under your control, and get angry when not.
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2015, 02:41:57 am »
Quote
It just doesn't make sense that the AI would calm down when you have them under your control, and get angry when not.

I think the idea was that they hacked the AI to make it forget about you :)

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2015, 04:56:46 am »
About spire civilian leaders, there is two things: gameplay and roleplay.

In the gameplay, they fit the very tiny niche of adding something for the player to make a choice about AIP. DataCenters, CoProcessors and the SuperTerminal are the vanilla tools for this; SCLeaders is the Minor Faction version of these. It could have been anything else than civilians captured and freed as long as the gameplay intend is this.

On the roleplay side, you are free to think they don't match (and I think the answer of Kasnavada is correct), but please don't mess with the gameplay just for the sake of the roleplay.

However, feel free to debate the roleplay, and propose changing what/who do this gameplay and which gameplay should this roleplay serve. For example, the fact that the Neinzul (roleplay) do the AI-warheads (gameplay) has been criticized.
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Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2015, 12:34:56 pm »
About spire civilian leaders, there is two things: gameplay and roleplay.

In the gameplay, they fit the very tiny niche of adding something for the player to make a choice about AIP. DataCenters, CoProcessors and the SuperTerminal are the vanilla tools for this; SCLeaders is the Minor Faction version of these. It could have been anything else than civilians captured and freed as long as the gameplay intend is this.

On the roleplay side, you are free to think they don't match (and I think the answer of Kasnavada is correct), but please don't mess with the gameplay just for the sake of the roleplay.

However, feel free to debate the roleplay, and propose changing what/who do this gameplay and which gameplay should this roleplay serve. For example, the fact that the Neinzul (roleplay) do the AI-warheads (gameplay) has been criticized.

I guess from that standpoint it makes a bit more sense.

Only reason I brought it up was because it's not that hard to send a spire fleet + champ(*Cough* scout with weapons/shields *Cough*) around freeing all the civilians early to get the constant AIP reduction every hour.

then again, i play on noob difficulty levels of 5 and 6.... so I have no idea how it would affect 8-10 level players
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Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: If You Could Overhaul One Minor Faction or Plot...
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2015, 01:02:04 pm »
About spire civilian leaders, there is two things: gameplay and roleplay.

In the gameplay, they fit the very tiny niche of adding something for the player to make a choice about AIP. DataCenters, CoProcessors and the SuperTerminal are the vanilla tools for this; SCLeaders is the Minor Faction version of these. It could have been anything else than civilians captured and freed as long as the gameplay intend is this.

On the roleplay side, you are free to think they don't match (and I think the answer of Kasnavada is correct), but please don't mess with the gameplay just for the sake of the roleplay.

However, feel free to debate the roleplay, and propose changing what/who do this gameplay and which gameplay should this roleplay serve. For example, the fact that the Neinzul (roleplay) do the AI-warheads (gameplay) has been criticized.

I guess from that standpoint it makes a bit more sense.

Only reason I brought it up was because it's not that hard to send a spire fleet + champ(*Cough* scout with weapons/shields *Cough*) around freeing all the civilians early to get the constant AIP reduction every hour.

then again, i play on noob difficulty levels of 5 and 6.... so I have no idea how it would affect 8-10 level players
I might just find out