Author Topic: First impressions from an ex-RoN player  (Read 1508 times)

Offline Jotto

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 16
First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« on: November 09, 2012, 10:36:00 pm »
Hello, I recently bought AI War and all the expansions on Steam.  I completed the beginner and intermediate tutorials and I'm now partway through that Beginner Game script.  It has not been too difficult so far, though there have been some surprises.

My background in strategy games is mainly Rise of Nations, though I was never at the expert level there.  I also have a bunch of experience playing tower defence flash games, and a bit of experience with Go.  My first impression of this game could be summed up with fascination and counter-productive absorption.  I'm hooked, big time.

At first I was put off not by the graphics, but rather by the "cheating AI" part (if they sent everything they had right off the bat, the AI would have orders of magnitude more force and would be invincible).  But two things make me forgive this - excellent strategy material, and a game lore that makes the "cheating AI" problem consistent and reasonable anyway.  I actually find the lore kind of interesting.  The rogue AI thing is of course very old and stale in media, but I like the "it's already come and gone" feel, it's different.

This game puts an emphasis on strategic principles I don't usually experience in such an emphasized manner.  In Rise of Nations, you are eventually going to conquer everything anyway, and at the very minimum you should conquer anything the enemy was slothful enough to let you take.  Rise of Nations is a game where failure to take any opportunity to conquer something is punished harshly, and this habit takes some time to get rid of.

At first it was quite bizarre, let me tell you, to be in the position of seeing so many planets waiting to be conquered, but knowing the AI would punish me for doing so.  In this Beginner Game script, you can actually take Mk4 planets with just all Mk1-2 ships and starships plus a couple mobile repairs, if you pay attention to attack radii and use group attack move and such.  This script is against a couple weak-personality difficulty 6s and I will assume that you could not push Mk4 planets around so easily on higher difficulties, at least not without severe AIP retaliation.

Overall this is very interesting stuff and I'm actually looking forward to my first loss so I can start to grasp the more advanced aspects of this.  I have a question: what difficulty level do people tend to play on? What would one expect from difficulty 10? How much can the game's difficulty vary when adjusting for AI difficulty level? How much of the change in game difficulty is due to improvements in AI behaviour, or in blunt stat boosting and more ships and such?

Thanks very much.
I came to prefer 120 planet maps, alt champ, no automatic AIP or astro trains, and hybrids enabled.

Offline Oralordos

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
  • Suffering from Chronic Backstabbing Disorder
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 10:59:37 pm »
Welcome to the forums. I personally consider these forums to be the best place on the vast ocean of the internet.

Now for your questions. 7 is what the developers play on and is considered "normal". I believe that 8 is where the AI has full control of all of it's tactics and units to spawn. Although a lot of people on these forums like to play on 10/10.

On a normal game of difficulty 10/10 you can expect the AI to be such a threat that you will not actually capture more than one or two planets before you attack the AI Homeworlds. The sheer force aimed at you requires massive defensive fortifications and as low AIP as you can get.

The difficulty can change quite a bit from the difficulty level. Besides some gating of AI behaviors and units at lower levels, higher levels can cause more spawns of dangerous things and most dangerous spawns will multiply themselves by the AI difficulty.

There is actually no blunt stat boosting in this game, at least, not from difficulty. Some ships will boost stats near themselves. AI behavior I believe will act at it's smartest at difficulty 7, and the unit gating will be fully unlocked at difficulty 8.

Offline Gallant Dragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • An RTS gamer in an FPS world
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 12:01:09 am »
When he says most people on this forum, keep in mind that most people on this forum have been playing since the 2.0-3.whatever days. :p  10/10 isn't recommended unless you can beat the AI handily at 8/8 with one hand tied behind your back.
It's just carriers all the way down!

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 12:07:27 am »
When he says most people on this forum, keep in mind that most people on this forum have been playing since the 2.0-3.whatever days. :p  10/10 isn't recommended unless you can beat the AI handily at 8/8 with one hand tied behind your back.

I will contest this!

You don't have to beat 8/8 handily to try 10/10.

You just have to be ready for a lot of trial and error.

After cheesing my first 10/10 game I have jumped from 8.3 being my norm to 9.0 being my norm.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 01:26:14 am »
Don't forget about Fallen Spire in this mix as well.

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 06:38:41 am »
In this Beginner Game script, you can actually take Mk4 planets with just all Mk1-2 ships and starships plus a couple mobile repairs, if you pay attention to attack radii and use group attack move and such.  This script is against a couple weak-personality difficulty 6s and I will assume that you could not push Mk4 planets around so easily on higher difficulties, at least not without severe AIP retaliation.

Actually, this remains very doable on higher difficulties, if you hit them before they've had a chance to build up a lot of reinforcements.  Planets don't get much reinforcements until they're put on alert (either by taking a planet next to them or by having a lot of your ships on it), so if you leapfrog over worlds you don't need you can find soft-target Mk IVs well into the midgame.  But if you leave one on your borders and don't do anything to weaken it it can build up into quite a threatening thing.

There's no more AIP penalty for taking a Mk IV world than a Mk I; the only thing to worry about is waking up a lot of Mk IV ships with your attack that your fleet can't deal with and then having them beeline for your home command station.  That can definitely happen.

Welcome!  Good work, also --- when I started playing I got totally stuck just trying to gate raid that Mk IV world.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 06:40:36 am by Martyn van Buren »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 09:32:03 am »
Welcome to the forums :)  I think all the questions have already been answered, but on the difficulty: at 7 it has all the tricks and almost all the units (doesn't do raid engines or self-destruct guardians and a couple other things iirc).  By diff 8 it's got it all, unless I'm forgetting something.

Basically 7 is for a "fair" game, 8 is for a "hard" game, and anything higher than 8 is for a "that didn't hurt enough, hit me harder" game ;)

On the "cheating AI" thing, yea, I developed a loathing for that kind of thing when playing RTS and 4X games against symmetrical opponents.  Rather, they were presented as symmetrical, but weren't because they got all kinds of extra resources and stuff.

In AIW we don't even pretend its symmetrical ;)  The AI's not playing the same game, and your game is better for it.  It does have a lot of limitations in that it only gets waves so often, only gets so much strength to spend on the periodic reinforcements, only gets so much strength for special forces, etc.  And only its "freed" ships can actively go on the offensive against you.

Put another way, "know thy enemy" isn't the same kind of thing as "know thyself" in this game.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 09:36:30 am »
welcome to the forums ^^
Most people in here play at least 7/7. Some people like to die a lot and play only 10/10. I prefer winning so I mostly stick to 7/7, 8/8 and 9/9.
Keep in mind that increasing the difficulty is not all you can do to make your game harder. AI types for example actually influence the difficulty of your game much more than the difficulty itself.

I personally think that AI War is the best strategy game I have played so far. Might take you some time to learn the game, but that will make your first 7/7 victory all the better.

EDIT: I think Raid Engines can be spawned on dif 7 though Keith. I remember seeing one a long time back, and no it was not against Raid Engine AI type. They don't happen very often though.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 11:34:01 am by zoutzakje »

Offline Winge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 05:06:42 pm »
EDIT: I think Raid Engines can be spawned on dif 7 though Keith. I remember seeing one a long time back, and no it was not against Raid Engine AI type. They don't happen very often though.

I saw one playing 7/7 for my first FS alternate victory.  So, yes they can happen.  Incidentally, I had Zenith Traders on and ran into two OS Raid Engines.  I called them the Zenith Traitors for a few games after that (although Spire Fleet >>> Raid Engine strike).
My other bonus ship is a TARDIS.

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 07:23:15 pm »
EDIT: I think Raid Engines can be spawned on dif 7 though Keith. I remember seeing one a long time back, and no it was not against Raid Engine AI type. They don't happen very often though.

I saw one playing 7/7 for my first FS alternate victory.  So, yes they can happen.  Incidentally, I had Zenith Traders on and ran into two OS Raid Engines.  I called them the Zenith Traitors for a few games after that (although Spire Fleet >>> Raid Engine strike).

what do you mean? Raid Engines can't be bought from traders. I do remember a rather painful game once when I did play against Raid Engine AI type. Often triggering 2 or 3 Raid Engines at once. Even endgame FS fleet had trouble with them lol

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2012, 07:42:20 pm »
what do you mean? Raid Engines can't be bought from traders.
Back when I removed the AIP-on-death from the structures the AI can build from the trader I also added a few new toys it can buy from it, including the "One Shot Raid Engine".

Zenith Traitors: Customer Service Always Comes First.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 08:40:59 pm »
what do you mean? Raid Engines can't be bought from traders.
Back when I removed the AIP-on-death from the structures the AI can build from the trader I also added a few new toys it can buy from it, including the "One Shot Raid Engine".

Zenith Traitors: Customer Service Always Comes First.

*blinks* I really need to turn them back on now.  That's bloody awesome.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 08:56:32 pm »
what do you mean? Raid Engines can't be bought from traders.
Back when I removed the AIP-on-death from the structures the AI can build from the trader I also added a few new toys it can buy from it, including the "One Shot Raid Engine".

Zenith Traitors: Customer Service Always Comes First.
its probably me being tired, but when I read that I thought you'd removed the Ape-on-death from the AI.

Is there an ape inside the AI?

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: First impressions from an ex-RoN player
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2012, 09:40:30 pm »
ohhh right. I remember you making that change Keith, but I didn't know you gave it a few new toys too. I have yet to see that kind of Raid Engine though. That makes me think of giving the Traders an intensity scaling too. The higher it is, the more likely the AI will receive some nasty stuff from it for example.