I miss the stronger vs and weaker vs display

[Collic]

Personally I'm a huge fan of the new system. I find it involves a lot less micro as far as fleet composition goes.

I'm talking about the way information is displayed, not the underlying mechanics. I agree that the new mechanics are vastly better, I just miss having a (possibly erroneous notion of what was good against what.

I know what you mean, but the filters they've added to the reference screen do help you to find out what's good against what fairly quickly. You can filter by selected, hostiles in system etc etc.

I think most of this will go away once we have a list of the various hull types, and the ships they correspond to in the wiki. Once that's in place the at a glance damage multipliers will serve a similar tool-tip at a glance function as the weak v strong display. I'd actually advocate hull-type being present on the ship information tool-tips, not sure if they are currently (I think not).

[Vinraith]

Two games later and I'm still finding the new system extremely opaque and awkward. Having to pause and go to the reference screen to "research" an enemy ship in order to find what's strong against it is a rather dramatic step backward in accessibility and ease of play. I find that most of the time I've stopped bothering, and just throw a mix of everything at any given target.

[Winter Born]

Raise the isue in Mantis yet?

[Lancefighter]

to be fair.. its not that much more opaque than, say, civ games random counters >.>

most games dont really give you the proper documentation on special damages and such, so often its more experimentation then actually looking up whats wrong.

I dont particularly think its that terrible, after a while you just start remembering whats good vs what, and what to avoid etc. Cant be any worse than memorizing all the ships of eve, for example

[HitmanN]

I'm used to the new setup. I still need to check hulls types and damage multipliers from time to time, but I've memorized most of the basic ones already, so this isn't a biggie for me. It did feel awkward at first though, admittedly, and some damage multiplier combinations feel weird and artificial at times, but as a whole, I think the current is better, once you get used to it.

That's my opinion anyhow.

[Vinraith]

Raise the isue in Mantis yet?

I have now. Suggested a hotkey to provide "this unit is good against/weak against" information.

[Vinraith]

to be fair.. its not that much more opaque than, say, civ games random counters >.>

most games dont really give you the proper documentation on special damages and such, so often its more experimentation then actually looking up whats wrong.

I dont particularly think its that terrible, after a while you just start remembering whats good vs what, and what to avoid etc. Cant be any worse than memorizing all the ships of eve, for example

I'm not sure "other games do it worse" is necessarily a great argument, though I'm not about to disagree with you. 

[Winter Born]

mantis post    http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1369

[Vinraith]

mantis post    http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1369

Thanks Winter, I should have thought to cross post that myself. 

[Winter Born]

mantis post    http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1369

Thanks Winter, I should have thought to cross post that myself. 

NP together we all prosper 

[Draxis]

I agree with vin - I dont like being dramatic, but the removal of SVWV has pretty much killed AI war for my regular group of 6 players.  There might be less information to remember than before, but its still way too much for it not to be available at a glance.  You cant expect people to keep pausing the game to check the ref when playing coop.  The old system was unintuitive but easy to explain, and once you understood what the numbers meant, it gave you exactly what you needed.  I dont understand why it was removed.

[superking]

There might be less information to remember than before, but its still way too much for it not to be available at a glance.  You cant expect people to keep pausing the game to check the ref when playing coop.  The old system was unintuitive but easy to explain, and once you understood what the numbers meant, it gave you exactly what you needed.  I dont understand why it was removed.

^

[Winter Born]

Kieth has acknowledged this issue here:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1369#c3668
 
imo adding comments to the mantis issue rather than here in the forum will be more useful in the long run

[BobTheJanitor]

It's tangentially related, but the reference tab is a little confusing. (Maybe I'm just easily confused... this game is making me think so) There's nothing that really tells you that the ship you're selecting up top is the one that is being treated as the attacker, or as 'your ship' for all the reference down below. So the warning pops up that I'm getting, say, 50 incoming Fighters to Planet X, and like a good newbie I go look at the reference tab to see what turrets would be good for handling that wave of fighters, since my main fleet force was elsewhere. Then I get confused for a few minutes trying to figure out why in the world it would take 5 minutes for a missile turret to kill a fighter, and why that was my quickest kill option for defense. Then I saw the other columns and everything inverted in my head and I realized that I was looking at stats for fighter attacking a turret, and not vice-versa. Maybe I'm dense (entirely possible) but something to label the dropdown box so I know if I'm looking at stats for my ships attacking an enemy ship and not the reverse. Or even two different modes to put the reference page in, one for when I want to know what my ships are good against, and one for when I want to look up an enemy ship and know what to use to kill it.