I cant play this game anymore without getting irrationally angry.

[NickAragua]

If AI Homeworlds are such a horrible grind I'd like to know how do you handle them? What's your strategy?

Don't get me wrong, I'm getting my money's worth out of this game and having a lot of fun with it.

It's been a while since the last time, so I don't remember any particular details, other than I usually play at difficulty 7/7 with random AIs. I'm pretty sure I took over the world next door to set up production facilities. I considered staging attacks from two jumps away, but it's kind of a pain in the ass, as explained way below. I recall using an EMP warhead at the start of every one of my "waves" to give my ships a little breathing room, and Spirecraft Penetrators to blow up some of the more offensive looking core guard posts. After that, the Penetrators are due for a half-hour recharge so that's that. The AI in my games always seems to have a preponderance of Spire Tractor Platforms, so any kind of stand-up fight without EMP means half my units get snatched away and then everybody dies. Eventually though, I was able to clear away enough of the tractor crap, orbital mass drivers, ion cannons and nearby fortresses that my units could get in there without dying in seconds. At that point, I was able to get my blob in there and sweep the guard posts (one or two at a time before my blob would lose critical mass) and then the command station (under about 40000 force fields of course).

I also had made the mistake of leaving the 'Avenger' on, which was kind of a downer. Between the Avenger and the >100 AIP jump the galaxy-level situation became a stalemate, at which point the AIs and I came to a mutual understanding and stopped shooting each other.

I'm not really sure what "clever" tactic exists to negate stuff like that rotating beam weapon guard post or the one that super charges nearby AI ships. When your attacking force is exterminated within seconds of entry, tactics become somewhat irrelevant.

While I'm aware of the concept of staging homeworld attacks from one world away, I still have to spend a bunch of time clearing out guard posts on the next-door MKIV world (which alerts the homeworld for a while) or accept a significant loss of forces in transit. Also, given how long it takes me to get there, it's kind of irrelevant - by the time I'm usually ready to launch a HW assault, the AI has stacked up at least hundreds of MK V ships there.

I've also read about some people staging attacks on the two homeworlds one right after the other, which is great but is difficult to execute when one homeworld is directly behind the other, and going around "the other way" would bring AI progress to the next mark level.

[Faulty Logic]

I'm not really sure what "clever" tactic exists to negate stuff like that rotating beam weapon guard post or the one that super charges nearby AI ships.

Teleporters (waves and waves of them) or something like transports to absorb the first pass and getting into range, then rotating your fleet, and drawing the ships off the post, respectively.
 

When your attacking force is exterminated within seconds of entry, tactics become somewhat irrelevant.

That much is certainly true. But, if you have a fleet getting wiped within seconds, it really isn't supposed to be homeworld attack time. You need to capture more planets, or do something else to increase fleet power.

But this seems like a good time to bring up the mini-exos. They are incredibly annoying to me, because they strongly encourage tedious siege scenarios.

[keith.lamothe]

But this seems like a good time to bring up the mini-exos. They are incredibly annoying to me, because they strongly encourage tedious siege scenarios.

Even with them spawning only on the AI HW in question?  That wasn't working right after I first did it, but it should be working now.

I can also have it do what I offered before, with it only launching such an exo every 3 dead posts or something like that, so it isn't as frequent.

But it feels wrong that the AI wouldn't lash out in some way at such an attack.

[Faulty Logic]

Even with them spawning only on the AI HW in question?

Yes.

I can also have it do what I offered before, with it only launching such an exo every 3 dead posts or something like that, so it isn't as frequent.

I don't think that would help.

But it feels wrong that the AI wouldn't lash out in some way at such an attack.

I think it's weird that the AI holds forces in reserve that it only uses after things go wrong.
And it already has the reserve, released threat, etc to definitely feel like it's reacting to a HW attack.

But thematics aside, the exos don't add to the difficulty, really. They just make the endgame assaults take more time and be less fun.

An overwhelming fleet still smashes the AI homeworld defenses, SR, etc, but has to pop the guardposts one at time, repair locally, repeat. But it'll still win.

A barely-wins fleet must take a while popping each post, with significant delays between attacks. It'll take a lot of casaulties each guardpost exo kill, making the whole assault take a really long time, repairing in my space between attacks. But it will still win.

There is a vanishingly small window where victory would be possible without the exos but isn't with them, admittedly.

[keith.lamothe]

I think it's weird that the AI holds forces in reserve that it only uses after things go wrong.

It's got essentially infinite supplies of forces, the difference is in what it thinks is appropriate to assign to dealing with you.  So there's a certain level of preventative force, and then if you demonstrate an actual credible threat it assigns more as a corrective force.

And it already has the reserve, released threat, etc to definitely feel like it's reacting to a HW attack.

In a mostly defensive form, meaning that either:
- the defensive response is sufficient, stonewalling you until a CPA comes along to challenge (and possibly defeat) your defenses
- the defensive response is insufficient, and you'll eventually whittle them down

So what I attempted to do (apparently unsuccessfully) with the on-core-guard-post-death exos was to add an offensive component to its response so that there was still a possibility of AI victory that wasn't via stonewalling.

It looks like the biggest problems with the current approach are:
- The response is per-core-guard-post, motivating popping one core guard post at a time
- The response happens _immediately_, motivating (perhaps simply requiring) that the player drop everything to deal with it

So still a multi-stage-boss-fight but more like if FF6's Kefka would, after every single time you hit him, went on some kind of mega-berserk-rampage that required you to stick to revive and heal actions for a good 4 turns or so.  I can see the problem with that

What I think might do better is:
- The first time a core guard post anywhere hits 50% health (or 75%, dunno; just trying to avoid motivating "trimming" all the posts before jumping in), it starts a 10-minute exo timer
- When that timer runs out, an exo is launched (from one of the AI HWs) and it tries to kill you, and the timer is reset to 30 minutes (not 10, so a longer interval) to try again later (and reset to 30 again after that)

The timers might be too long or too short, but the idea is:
- A massive-player-fleet situation will still probably have to deflect one of these endgame exos, unless the player's forces are so overwhelming as to allow a successful simultaneous assault on both AI homeworlds (in which case, well played).
- A less-dominating-player-fleet-situation may have to deal with 2 or 3 of these, and may or may not win, but (in theory) it won't take massively longer either way because the player has a significant window between the attacks to make another attempt (and the exo probably left them with a goodly amount of salvage)
- An unprepared player will die, fairly quickly (though the intensity of these on Diff 7 would need to be fairly low so they could probably handle it after a savescum or two)

Thoughts?  Worst idea in the world?

[Mánagarmr]

I've been meaning to get back into AI War many, many times lately, but I have too many other games that take my focus right now. :/

[keith.lamothe]

I've been meaning to get back into AI War many, many times lately, but I have too many other games that take my focus right now. :/

I wouldn't see that as a problem.  I want AIW to become the best singleplayer/co-op vs-AI real-time-strategy (emphasis on strategy) game out there, but I certainly don't expect it to become the end-all-be-all of even that particular sub-genre, let alone any broader category.  Playing other games is a good thing

[Mánagarmr]

True enough, Keith, but I WANT to play AI War, it's just that I'm not in that kind of mental groove right now. Could have something to do with me being suffering pretty badly from stress atm, so I just can't commit to that kind of mental energy. But it's one of few games that have never been uninstalled on my computer

[keith.lamothe]

True enough, Keith, but I WANT to play AI War, it's just that I'm not in that kind of mental groove right now. Could have something to do with me being suffering pretty badly from stress atm, so I just can't commit to that kind of mental energy. But it's one of few games that have never been uninstalled on my computer

That's actually been my exact situation with playing the game at times: it's a lot of fun if I get into it, but sometimes between work and kids and such I take a look at the game and my brain kind of wilts in fear   It's often easier to code than to play.

But then life changes and I've got energy for it again, etc.

Some games are good for relaxation.  Some games are good for fully engaging the mind.  The latter seem to be more rare, and that's the main goal here (while also not being unnecessarily anti-relaxation).

[Cyborg]

Maybe this is better for the expansion, but the ending does need some work. I have asked this before, what is the expectation by the developer for the end of the game? Do we have to have multiple rebuilt armies to win the game? Is it expected to be a slow, gradual erosion of the home base? And right now, the AI does have some defensive structures which are absolutely ridiculous and have no counters, such as the Wrath Lance. Looking at a fully fortified home world after taking down a core world, it can be daunting, and you can only hope that you have the right toys for the job.


And I think that needs to be some kind of polish focus, where we need perhaps some defensive structures or spellcasting units, and put any needed timers on those.


If I'm a designer here, I'm trying to make the home world an interesting problem, not necessarily a slow grind. After all, to even get to that point, there's plenty of time spent, which is the main currency in this game for better or worse. "Is the amount of time that it's going to take to overcome the whole world worth it? Will it be fun?" I would rather have random surprises, unknown encounters, and having to be well prepared and make the right decisions in battle rather than try to erode some ridiculous home world. That's why I play with super weapons.

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe this is better for the expansion, but the ending does need some work. I have asked this before, what is the expectation by the developer for the end of the game?

I want the homeworld assaults to be:

1) Fun
2) Dangerous
3) Not too long

In more detail:

1) "Fun" is the most subjective goal, but also the most important.  If someone's not enjoying the endgame, then it's not doing its job (for them, at least).  A few specific points that come to mind:

- Large battle(s), lots of explosions and space pew-pew, etc.

- An experience that's different enough from the rest of the game that the variety is refreshing.

- Variety from endgame to endgame, to at least some extent.

- The feeling that your preparations and choices (unlocks, captured stuff, hacks, etc) up to that point make a difference at the end.

- Avoiding the feeling that there's just nothing you can do except hurl your fleet at it on repeated suicide missions


2) "Dangerous" in that I don't want human-victory to be a given once the assault starts unless the player's skill level just thoroughly outclasses the scenario (difficulty level, etc). So:

- The AI's response to the assault can't be purely defensive

- The offensive component of the response needs to be pretty nasty, or at least what passes for "pretty nasty" on that difficulty

- The offensive component of the response needs to be focused on achieving an AI-win, rather than just pounding the player's empire to scrap (which could drag things out)


3) "Not too long" in that if it takes too long in inevitably fails to be fun (for most people, anyway), though this doesn't necessarily mean super-short either.  Specifically:

- If the player's coming in with simply overwhelming force like a 4-5 city FS fleet, then it's ok if the homeworlds just kind of vaporize after whatever last-ditch defense is launched and defeated.  The idea there is that the AI was throwing all those exos and whatnot preemptively precisely because it didn't think it could survive such an assault.

- If the player's coming in with a very high-power fleet (like a non-superweapon fleet with 20 planets worth of knowledge and a bunch of hacked/captured production facilities, or somewhat less than that plus some light/moderate superweapon support), then I wouldn't want the individual homeworld battles to last longer than about 10 minutes, with a total endgame ("beginning of assault" through "you win") time of about 30 minutes.

- If the player's coming in with a high power fleet (say, non-superweapons with 15-20 planets worth of knowledge and only a few hacked/captured production facilities), I'd think something more like 20 minutes per homeworld and an hour total.  So an assault would involve either fairly careful play or a refleet.

- If the player's coming in with a moderate power fleet (say, non-superweapons with 10-15 planets worth of knowledge and either very few hacked/captured production facilities or having spent an above-average amount of K on non-offensive stuff) maybe 30 minutes per homeworld an 1.5 hours total.  So an assault would probably involve at least one refleet.

- If the player's coming in with less than that then I still wouldn't want the endgame to run longer than an hour and a half.  Either they pull out some remarkable play and win, or the AI's response crushes them

Do we have to have multiple rebuilt armies to win the game?

More than one refleet?  Only if you're trying to win without a high-power fleet, or you make significant mistakes.

Is it expected to be a slow, gradual erosion of the home base?

I'd prefer if it weren't slow.  But a HW might take multiple attacks.  Say 2 or 3.  But not 6, unless you didn't bring a big enough gun.

And right now, the AI does have some defensive structures which are absolutely ridiculous and have no counters, such as the Wrath Lance.

My understanding is that some of you have found efficient ways to deal with the Wrath Lance.  Perhaps I misunderstood.

Anyway, the point of structures like that is to give you problems you haven't faced in the rest of the game, and push you to find clever ways of dealing with them.  This can result in situations where some players will not see those solutions (or perhaps the solutions won't really apply in their particular circumstances) and it will look like a brick-wall-grinder.  I don't immediately react to those situations with changing the structures because it may just be a learning-curve thing.

If y'all really do agree that there's just no reasonable solution to a particular structure, however, then I'm happy to find an alternate implementation.

Looking at a fully fortified home world after taking down a core world, it can be daunting, and you can only hope that you have the right toys for the job.

I think it's supposed to be daunting, though I'd prefer it to be daunting more in the sense of "this thing might kill me" than in the sense of "it could take me several hours to whittle this down".  So more like melee combat with a raging bull than getting a 60oz steak set before you for dinner.

I would rather have random surprises, unknown encounters

That's a good thought.  Having some part of the response be unpredictable, with a corresponding reduction in the beefiness of the predictable aspects (guard posts, etc).

Specific ideas on the random surprises and unknown encounters?

[relmz32]

So still a multi-stage-boss-fight but more like if FF6's Kefka would, after every single time you hit him, went on some kind of mega-berserk-rampage that required you to stick to revive and heal actions for a good 4 turns or so.  I can see the problem with that

A) It makes me happy that the Kefka boss fight is used as a point of reference.

B) As far as my HW assualts on 7 to 8 diffs, it generally takes me an hour or more of in game time and at least one refleet, unless I have Superweapons to crush really good alignments of Homeworld GPs. 

Wraith Lance: Its just really annoying for me to deal with. Admittedly I am pretty bad at playing ring around the rosie with death lasers. If anyone does have a good way of dealing with those, I would be interested.

[Faulty Logic]

- The response is per-core-guard-post, motivating popping one core guard post at a time
- The response happens _immediately_, motivating (perhaps simply requiring) that the player drop everything to deal with it

I agree.

- The first time a core guard post anywhere hits 50% health (or 75%, dunno; just trying to avoid motivating "trimming" all the posts before jumping in), it starts a 10-minute exo timer
- When that timer runs out, an exo is launched (from one of the AI HWs) and it tries to kill you, and the timer is reset to 30 minutes (not 10, so a longer interval) to try again later (and reset to 30 again after that)

I approve. Heartily. The times sound like a good starting point, too.

[Winge]

So still a multi-stage-boss-fight but more like if FF6's Kefka would, after every single time you hit him, went on some kind of mega-berserk-rampage that required you to stick to revive and heal actions for a good 4 turns or so.  I can see the problem with that

I must've leveled up too much in FFVI...I always crushed Kefka.  Exdeath, on the other hand...

Wraith Lance: Its just really annoying for me to deal with. Admittedly I am pretty bad at playing ring around the rosie with death lasers. If anyone does have a good way of dealing with those, I would be interested.

I've heard that some people could take it out with Teleporting Units or Transports.  However, the Gravity brutal pick would make Transports ineffective, and you are certainly not guaranteed a teleporting unlock.  I've only seen it once myself, though.

[Faulty Logic]

I've heard that some people could take it out with Teleporting Units or Transports.  However, the Gravity brutal pick would make Transports ineffective, and you are certainly not guaranteed a teleporting unlock.  I've only seen it once myself, though.

*points to signature*