Author Topic: I can't handle it!  (Read 3830 times)

Offline geggis

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I can't handle it!
« on: November 04, 2009, 04:58:02 pm »
Hello there, I've only been playing the demo because I wasn't so sure whether I could handle the scale of AI War. Unfortunately I'm not getting along with it. I've probably been playing for about 6-8 hours just in the tutorials and controlling things isn't getting any easier despite reading plenty here on the forums, over on the wiki and actually in the game.

What I can't handle is the amount of controls/hotkeys that the player is expected to search for outside the games interface. L and L + Shift, right click + V, right click + CTRL to mention a few I've just discovered. The actions that these hotkeys perform can't be carried out using just the mouse and the GUI. I'm a Photoshop/Illustrator/Indesign hotkey maniac so I'm not shy of some finger gymnastics but from a beginners point of view many actions should be accessible via a button in the GUI with a shortcut or hotkey presented in the respective tooltip/balloon. This way all that the game offers is there at the click of a button, rather than hidden in the manual or in the controls section, so beginners know what can and can't be done straight away. I've read many posts on here from people saying "It would be great if the game did this" shortly followed by "It does, all you need to do is select a unit and hold X + G + CTRL + Right click". This seems silly when there's plenty of on screen space to considerately craft some clear controls. When beginners become more familiar with things that's when hotkeys start to get used and I don't think it should work the other way around.

May I also ask why adding a unit to your selection requires the player to press shift + Left click and subtracting a unit requires CTRL + Left click? Why not just shift + Left click again on a unit like in Windows or any Adobe software where you select or deselect things? It's little things like these that really trim down the ol' hotkeys list.

I also realised that after positioning a few groups of matched ships around a wormhole so that they were all as far away from it as possible but still within range that when I wanted to put them into attack-move I couldn't simply change their 'attack status' to attack move, I had to select each group individually and retarget their location. This seems really strange when a few buttons; 'Attack when in range', 'Attack and pursue', 'Free Roam' could be added somewhere to select the desired stance.

As it stands I've read about and played a fair amound of AI War to realise that carrying out simple tasks can be very difficult. I wanted to bring my Science Labs on to the current planet, and into certain positions, and in order to do this I had to go to the other planet select them and bring them through the wormhole using CTRL + Right click then find where I originally wanted to position them. The bar at the bottom of the screen which shows the units positions galaxy wide should also allow you to select units so this trawling about isn't necessary. Combining this functionality with ships having the ability to navigate through wormholes themselves to get to target locations would streamline things no end.

I'm sorry if this all comes off negative but I wanted to let you know my thoughts in the hope that some of these issues can at least be considered. I've perservered with it because I can see there's a very deep strategy game underneath the difficulties I'm having.

Thanks for reading!

Offline quickstix

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 06:08:43 pm »
There's a stickied thread in the forum called 'Printable Shortcut Keys Reference' where Revenantus maintains a really well set out reference chart of all the keys (in LaTeX no doubt!). If you haven't already, I'd recommend printing it out and having it next to you as you play. There's a lot to remember, but I always keep that chart with me and now I can pretty much remember all of them. Makes a huge difference while playing.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of adding more buttons or elements to the GUI (unless you can disable them) because I think anymore really might start to cramp up the viewing space, which can be a big issue on smaller monitors and resolutions in general and in a game like this with so many units, screen real estate is very valuable and I think right now is a good balance. That planetary summary used to be smaller, but it was near impossible to read it without a microscope (;D) and now I think it's just the right size on the screen. A button to change group status sounds interesting, but I think the statuses are perhaps too varied and I think the system works fine anyways, no need to add another button do to the same thing, but more opinions on that I think from others.

I personally think AI War's interface works great. The best way I've found to learn the interface with any game in general is just to have the controls sitting next to you and playing the game until it all becomes second nature. AI War is a big game, and I'm still learning myself, but I think the shortcuts as of now do their job well and let me do whatever I want with my forces. Just my two cents on the topic I think.

Offline RCIX

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 06:31:42 pm »
Yup, it took me the longest time to discover some of the shortcuts (i only generally skim hotkey references, and to me at least it seemed incomplete), and the only baffling thing so far is the multi-selection method (I'm used to ctrl adding to selection and shift removing i think).
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Offline geggis

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 07:05:16 pm »
A button to change group status sounds interesting, but I think the statuses are perhaps too varied and I think the system works fine anyways, no need to add another button do to the same thing.

Unless I'm mistaken there are only three different attack status' which you can set and I've listed those above. Normal attack within range, attack-move and free roam defend. That would only be three buttons, tops. These distinctions aren't at all mentioned in the tutorials as far as I'm aware but are a vital part of defending and maintaining territory. Having to reissue a target position to change an attack status when your units don't require moving seems clunky when they can all be changed at the click of one button or hotkey.

With regards to concerns about on screen real estate; I agree that people with small screens or lower resolutions may have difficulty but I think that's a small compromise when compared to the benefits of a more robust and transparent interface showing the full extent of a players control over their fleet. At present I feel like there're simply too many hidden commands and actions that are very useful but can only be found by referring to manuals/wikis/forum posts. Don't get me wrong I don't expect every single interaction to be represented as a button but some of the more common commands that even a beginner is likely to use such as dividing a fleet, setting attack status' on units and docks, placing multiple turrets without having to continually go back and forth from the build list. These are microing tweaks too. Is there any way of toggling instead of having to hold CTRL and Z down to see unit paths and ranges? Zooming in and out makes it hard to keep track of exactly where things are going and how close they are to targets etc.

Inter-planet travel is tedious from my experience so far unless I'm missing something. Moving units into wormholes is a pain zoomed out and even zoomed in you've got to CTRL + Right click to issue the command. If you accidentally press CTRL + Left click then you go to the other planet and the game deselects all that you had selected! I know these seem quite pedantic but in the grand scheme of things all these little micro interactions add up. Up to press I've been impressed with the autonomy of the units which is something I regard very highly second only to a solid interface and control scheme. I want to like AI War but it's putting up a real fight with the latter. I hope it's just me.

I'll try the hotkey sheet out and let you know how I get on as well.

Yup, it took me the longest time to discover some of the shortcuts (i only generally skim hotkey references, and to me at least it seemed incomplete), and the only baffling thing so far is the multi-selection method (I'm used to ctrl adding to selection and shift removing i think).

I totally agree with you here. CTRL clicking units on and off would work in the same way as selecting files on your computer thus not requiring you to learn a new selection method. As I said above, I use a lot of Adobe programs and can't survive without my hotkeys and they all use very similar keys combinations so there's a consistency that makes using the apps a lot easier. If basic controls can mirror habitual interactions with your OS then it's another hurdle cleared.

Offline Kjara

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 08:13:48 pm »
I agree that telling units to go into wormholes is a huge pain(as I'm usually zoomed out enough its impossible to click on the wormhole), I avoid it by just telling units to move on the galaxy view whenever I want them to use a wormhole.

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 12:08:50 am »
Hey, geggis. I apologize for the troubles you're having with AI War's interface. As a preface, let me say that I don't have AI War in front of me right now, so I can't reference it while writing this, but I will be looking at it later and searching for ways to improve usability for both new and advanced users, which is really important to me. I understand how absolutely frustrating fighting with an interface can be.

I admit that there are a lot of controls to keep in mind, which can be a bit complex, but on the other hand, many of them do exist to make controlling the game simpler for advanced users and aren't necessary for beginners. You do make a good point, though, that important hotkeys like v+ for FRD mode should be covered in the tutorial. I think that's probably just an oversight, and hopefully we can get the tutorial modified in the near future to cover that material. If there are any more controls you think are vital and aren't covered in the tutorial, please let us know (though I think we also need to keep the amount of hotkey information presented in the tutorials to a minimum, since there's already so much other new information in a game as different as AI War that they need to absorb).

Now, a lot of AI War hotkeys were added by player request in order to make controlling units better; they weren't originally in the game's design and they're there to make life easier for the advanced users. I don't think that mention of a lot of the hotkeys can just be thrown into tooltips without things getting further cluttered; the tooltips and such are already presenting a ton of information, and putting in more information on hotkeys to help beginning players will make it more of a mess and cover even more precious screen space. Adding in buttons everywhere for the various hotkeys would also be problematic; the interface is at a point where it's very usable and informative in the limited available space, which is designed to work on resolutions as small as 1024x768, and the added buttons would make it take up more space (screen real-estate is precious) and be more complex. In this area, I feel that buttons to aid in ease of use for new players only add to the initial complexity of an already complex game, which is a bit counterproductive.

I think it's to be expected that in an RTS of this complexity (this number of ships covering this amount of space with this much variety in ship function) can't be controlled just with the mouse, despite it being possible to control some other RTS games just with a mouse (such as Starcraft). In some cases, this is actually done just to help players; requiring the Ctrl modifier to make wormhole-related commands, for example, helps prevent wormhole commands from being made accidentally. The mouse is one of two tools for computer and game input, and it'd be difficult and often counter-productive to make it so that everything can be performed just with that one tool, much like making it so everything can be done just with the keyboard would be similarly unreasonable.

I'm unsure of how we can make it more clear in general that a hotkey exists for some function; we do have a really complete and well-organized list of game hotkeys available in-game and online, which users can (and should, in my opinion) read through to see what all is possible in controlling this game. Manuals and references exist much to keep the interface uncluttered, with only necessary information displayed there (I feel that AI War errs on the side of too much in the interface, which I feel is better for new players than being too cryptic).


Regarding ship modes and having the modifiers be buttons rather than movement modifier keys, I'll give that some thought. Revenantus had an idea where you could have a button indicating the state of ships in the group, where it'd be FRD if all are in FRD, or Mixed if they're mixed, etc, and you'd be able to click the button and select a mode from the list. That seems like a possibility. I'll see what we can come up with that fits in the available screen space, since you're right that there's lack of reasonable control in this regard if you want to set a new mode after putting ships into their various positions. Also, just changing the modifiers seems like something we should avoid, particularly with the possibility of a universal command queue system that would benefit significantly from movement modifiers so different legs of a journey could have different movement modes.

Regarding moving ships to specific locations on other planets, I agree that being unable to do that is irritating limitation to the interface. Being able to select a ship and give it specific orders on another world is unlikely to ever happen because it'd require a massive code overhaul that would probably break things and be a huge time sink, in addition to changing some implications of the current system (such as control groups across worlds). There's a ship that may be added to the game in the future called a Rally Post or something of that sort which ships arriving at a world would travel to, or a possible change to wormholes to allow wormholes to have gather points, which would achieve this goal without being such a development time sink. The latter, especially, would be a decent solution to this problem that wouldn't be an unrealistic task for Chris. Hopefully we can get a solution for this in before too long, but at the very least, being unable to issue specific commands on other worlds isn't often very limiting.

You wanted to be able to issue commands to ships galaxy-wide, which is supported in the game via the find tool on the galaxy map. Use the find tool, select the type of ship you want, and then follow the instructions at the bottom of the screen to move ships from several worlds to a specific one.

Regarding paths and ranges, there is currently no way to just toggle these on or off; this request hasn't come up before, and considering how much this can tax one's GPU (the game can slow down pretty badly when displaying ranges for a ton of ships), I see toggling as potentially problematic. Adding it as another hotkey strikes me as needless complexity for something you don't normally look at for very long, and having this be a settings menu setting similarly seems like clutter. Is this something you'd see yourself using for long enough stretches such that toggling rather than holding would be beneficial? If so, I can't guarantee it'd be added, but I can bring it up with Chris and get his thoughts on it. I suspect it'd be just a smallish nice-to-have, though, and with so many more important things to spend development time on, I can't really say when it'd even be added. The list of work to do on the game grows faster than it shrinks, unfortunately.

Regarding selection and deselection hotkeys, they function the way they do in order for things to happen reasonably when selecting groups of ships. If we were dealing with a few ships, then maybe it'd be reasonable, but unlike in the Windows environment, where toggling makes sense because it's a mostly-1D field of organized homogeneous items, here you're dealing with large, unorganized collections of differently sized ships across two tiers of selection priority (military, nonmilitary) in a 2D field. Selection and deselection of ships needs to be something that's fast and easy so it doesn't get you killed, and having it be toggle-based is going to be nothing but frustrating in situations where you have both selected and not selected ships in a single group, or especially when they're of different priority levels. By having different keys for these functions, partially-selected groups and mixed groups are easily manageable without any ambiguity about what happens in different cases. (also, just to clarify, it's alt+click to deselect, not ctrl+click)

That's really the gist about why a lot of things are done the way they are in the game; doing it the expected way winds up being problematic in this environment, so they have to be done differently than the same function in another environment. Granted, that may not always be the case; we're human and make mistakes, so things in the game might be redundant just because of a mistake or because a later change made it so. It's always good to check, though, so if you see things that look like they could be better, we'd love to hear about it (this post of yours is definitely a good one).

Also, regarding wormhole stuff, you and kjara are right that it's difficult to make wormhole commands while zoomed out. I believe this is going to be addressed soon by having wormhole areas not shrink significantly as you zoom out. Furthermore, losing ship selection when using ctrl+left click strikes me as unintended; it should maintain that selection. That might be something we can address soon. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

RCIX: Sorry to hear the selection/deselection keys in AI War go against the conventions you've seen in other environments. Much of my experience with RTS games is Starcraft, where shift worked as in AI War. In this way, it's hard to please everyone when making controls for a game that are as detailed as those in AI War. Typically, having key configuration is a great feature and really important for usability, but when it's reaching the control complexity of something like AI War, that's significantly less feasible. I hope things like this aren't being too distracting and making the game too difficult for you to control, though.

Thanks for posting your thoughts on these issues. I apologize for the long delay in responding, but I wanted to discuss the issues with Revenantus and give some additional thought to it. I'll definitely give this all some consideration when I have the game in front of me and, where applicable, try to come up with reasonable solutions to suggest to Chris (the primary dev behind AI War) that will improve usability in the best way possible while also costing reasonable amounts of development time. We really appreciate people's suggestions for the game, so if you have more thoughts, complaints, or whatever, please feel free to post about them!


Some notes for myself so I can easily get some info out of these long blocks of text later, when looking at the game moreso:

-v+ FRD mode hotkey in tutorials
-Mention more hotkeys in tutorials (dividing fleet?)
-Changing ship mode without movement command
-Find feature in tutorials?
-Ctrl-path / Z-range toggle rather than holding?
-Ship selection when ctrl+left clicking through wormholes
-Hotkeys in tooltips?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 12:32:17 am by Fiskbit »
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Offline Kjara

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2009, 12:25:56 am »
kjara: Sorry to hear the selection/deselection keys in AI War go against the conventions you've seen in other environments. Much of my experience with RTS games is Starcraft, where shift worked as in AI War. In this way, it's hard to please everyone when making controls for a game that are as detailed as those in AI War. Typically, having key configuration is a great feature and really important for usability, but when it's reaching the control complexity of something like AI War, that's significantly less feasible. I hope things like this aren't being too distracting and making the game too difficult for you to control, though.

I think you meant someone else here.  My only(stated here) issue is with wormhole collision being too tiny at the zooms that I play at.  I'm sure I have others that I haven't realized yet though :).

I'm actually huge fan of shift always adding, since I love to shift doubleclick on stuff to add local units(range of this being controlled by my zoom level) of a specific type to groups, and having it sometimes add and sometimes remove would be a huge pain.

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2009, 12:31:55 am »
Whoopsies, I had meant RCIX. I'll update that in my post. Sorry about that! :P
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Offline RCIX

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 01:05:20 am »
RCIX: Sorry to hear the selection/deselection keys in AI War go against the conventions you've seen in other environments. Much of my experience with RTS games is Starcraft, where shift worked as in AI War. In this way, it's hard to please everyone when making controls for a game that are as detailed as those in AI War. Typically, having key configuration is a great feature and really important for usability, but when it's reaching the control complexity of something like AI War, that's significantly less feasible. I hope things like this aren't being too distracting and making the game too difficult for you to control, though.


It's mostly confusing because it doesn't behave quite like i expect; If i'm trying to deselect a bunch of ships it's vaguely annoying when shift-(drag)click doesn't work. (Sorry for stating i was used to control, i'm generally not aware of my key preferences unless i'm actually using them). My big problem is with selection toggling. I agree though that a good solution would need to be worked out for the multiple selection priorities, which is the main obstacle at present.
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 01:41:01 am »
Well, it's not just selection priorities, but also mixes of selected and not selected units. In that case, toggling is worthless unless you're clicking on each individual ship, which isn't particularly worthwhile. Adding a toggle would add to interface clutter, and I'm confident that people would wind up thinking it doesn't work well in practice when they actually use it. Toggling is fine in small systems, but the size and complexity of the space of ships in AI War makes toggling unrealistic, while having separate add and remove functions removes all ambiguity.

I decided to check out how this was done in Starcraft, which I have on-hand right now. It offers a mix between the two. Shift+drag is purely additive, so there's no toggling involved. However, shift+click is a toggle. This means that if you're dragging, you can't (to my knowledge) deselect units, but in a game like AI War, that's a useful feature due to the high unit counts. Thus, the alt key is a good thing to have. Then, with the alt modifier, having shift toggle when you're just clicking on specific units is redundant and still seems kind of inconsistent with the drag version.

If users would really like, perhaps we could change shift to toggle for clicking only (not dragging), but I question how useful that would be versus how confusing and annoying (annoying in the case of double clicking on a selected unit to select all of that unit type on the screen, since it would just toggle off and on (as in Starcraft)). I'm really unsure about this change.
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Offline Ktoff

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 05:08:04 am »
Furthermore, losing ship selection when using ctrl+left click strikes me as unintended; it should maintain that selection. That might be something we can address soon. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

When you ctrl left-click a wormhole you change the planet and as far as i remember you cannot have any ships selected that are on another planet or am i mistaken?

The FRD mode could really use a button in my oppinion. Similar to the low power mode (and maybe just next to the button which also has a hotkey) or group move.

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 06:41:17 am »
I'm testing that out right now in 2.0 and it turns out it is roughly working as intended. Basically, it's not whether the units are selected on the other side of the wormhole (that will likely always be no), but whether they're still selected when you return through the wormhole. The game should remember selections when returning to planets. I say it's roughly working because it remembers what is selected, but there's currently a bug that sometimes causes it to randomly select other units when moving between planets, which can clobber your old selection.

Edit: Regarding an FRD button, what we might do is an onscreen button that lets you select what mode to place the currently selected ships in, without having to issue a movement command.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 06:44:35 am by Fiskbit »
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Offline geggis

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 07:43:49 am »
Thanks for the detailed (and speedy!) response Fiskbit. It's much appreciated and I'll try and help as much as I can. I don't want to come across as somebody whining because of my inexperience and the same time don't want to undermine all Arcen's hard work!

RTS has always been a tough genre for me because it usually relies heavily on micro-management, quick thinking and multitasking and of course being at one with the interface/control scheme. Almost as a direct result TBS has become the sweet spot for me as it does away with a few of these issues by default. I love that AI War is focused more on grand strategies and tactics rather than constant micro-managing and I hope that I'm just having teething trouble with the controls! Perhaps I just need to start getting into habits with the hotkeys!

As a beginner and somebody who loves a lean and elegant interface I don't believe that the interface displays too much information at all. What Revenantus suggested is pretty much what I was meaning but I'm not sure I get you regarding the command queuing. I wasn't aware of (or how) you queue commands.

I think the quick buttons at the bottom of the screen are really useful but I have difficulty using the unit palette because the order of the units change; is there any particular order that the units appear in? Do many people use the unit palette once they get to grips with the hotkeys?

Regarding the range and movement paths, don't worry about that, it was late, I was tired and I was just spilling a few thoughts out after signing off from AI War!  ;)

Even though I'm having difficulty with things I keep coming back to it in the hope that something just clicks so there's time yet! My apologies if this response seems a little fragmented, I'm working at the same time! Thanks again.


When you ctrl left-click a wormhole you change the planet and as far as i remember you cannot have any ships selected that are on another planet or am i mistaken?

The FRD mode could really use a button in my oppinion. Similar to the low power mode (and maybe just next to the button which also has a hotkey) or group move.

Thanks Ktoff, both of these are what I was meaning. The group-move/lone button exists and I learned about it through the interface without having to refer to anything external to the playfield. I think default/Attack-move/FRD would be welcome considering how important they are without adding too much to the interface.

Offline Ktoff

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 07:52:28 am »
Hey geggis,

as far as i understand the different planets are completely seperate and this won't change any time soon, so you will always only be able to select units on your current planet. BUT the UI remembers what units you selected on which planet so once you go back to the planet you came from the same units will be selected.so you just need to re-ctrl-click on the wormhole you just came through and no harm done.

Cheers,
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Offline Kjara

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Re: I can't handle it!
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 12:25:52 pm »
I generally only use the unit palette on planets I own when making control groups(and the palette usually isn't changing much then) or when invading a hostile planet without a scout(so only my ships show up on it anyhow).

I think if you hit f1 you can see the order things appear in(and see stats for all ships as well).