Penetrators

[Red Spot]

I'd like to hear how others feel about the nerf regarding Penetrators.

Personally I dislike it, for mainly 2 reasons.
-Where I am still able to use them, raiding nearby planets, am I more succesfull (and not waste minerals) using raid-starships (which are usefull again in the role they have)
-I am still able to neuter AI homeplanets using only mk1s of them, it just takes a little micro. (Havent actually done so, but did the same on an 'long time alerted' mk4 planet without even losing a single mk1 Penetrator.)


Their normal cloaking means you have to sit on them whenever you use them, even sending them in a nextdoor planet might mean their death. They get decloaked the instance they hit the planet and just sit there amongst the build-up unless you move them, 10M health is shot to pieces in seconds when you concentrate fire
Getting them several jumps out is a big "no-go" as you cant load them onto transports and why bother using an expensive unit, build from a limited resource, when you have an equivelent that is build from unlimited resources and has much higher speed so it can actually outrun the foes (raid-starships). Neutering a planet just so I can get a Penetrator to the next seems a bit too much of requirement for them to be practical.

On the other side, when you pre-nuke a load of tachion-guardians, they are as OP as they where before, just a bit harder to get to with the requirement of Xampite.
Which brings me to the next thing, minor compared to the actual balance of the unit though. I never find any Xampite on planets surrounding me, saying that I cant use the Penetrator unless I am willing to pay a bit extra for it (taking more ground than/when I wish, or fighting a battle I otherwise wouldnt have to), again giving me some indication they should be worth that effort.

Currently my use has gone from "casual-use unit that helps out getting out of stalemate-like situation" to "have a cap next to a frontline CC just incase exo-waves send golems, so they can do an early 100+M damage to it", which doesnt say "Penetrator!" to me
I agree they where a bit OP before, but that was still your choice, now they are UP(is that actually used?).


Not sure where limitations are but I'd say rebalance them as followed:
-perma-cloaking back on (off during cooldown, as normal)
-health ok as it is now (it was way OP, perhaps UP now, but good for now)
-back to the original mineral-requirement (possibly even a step down, see last 'nerf' why so)
-(high)attrition on worlds above (and) their own level (sending a lone mk1 to nuke a planets CC a couple of jumps out will cost you a Penetrator .. period)
-Cant hit targets above their own (+1) level (just try to get a cap of mk5 penetrators(just 1 iirc), and even than, wait 6 hours before you have nuked an entire AI homeplanet?)

[zebramatt]

I'm inclined to agree about the cloaking but would perhaps nerf their health further.

Also, I reckon giving them a speed penalty when they are decloaked (after they've fired a shot) would be a good idea!

[TechSY730]

Nothing says "I have over-thought this" like a balance analysis matrix.  

	Guaranteed safe trip to target	Risky trip to target
Resource needed to build is common	Old penetrators. Overpowered	Able to be balanced, because even though getting there is risky and/or tricky and has a moderate chance of failing, you have a decent number of opportunities to try again. This risky trip can be implemented by normal cloaking (as it is now), or by Red Spot's suggestion of adding a self-attrition on higher mark worlds like penalty.
Resource needed to build is somewhat rare	Able to be balanced, because even though getting there is safe, you now actually care about getting them back safely because you don't have enough of what is needed to build them to just carelessly get them killed. The current Mk. I penetrator of a Xampite asteroid is a good "somewhat rare" minimum requirement.	Current (5.007 to as of this post) penetrators. Underpowered

So basically, only one nerf or the other should of been chosen. Implementing both nerfs made penetrators underpowered.

EDIT: One aspect this matrix does not cover is how at risk of dying the penetrator is on the return journey. Before, the risk was rather low due to its crazy high heath. I think most agree that the current HP is much closer to balanced than the old HP was, so this table assumes in its analysis that a risky return journey will remain in place.

[CodeMichael]

There's precedent for units taking more damage on AI controlled planets (engineers).  Why not do the same with penetrators?  Then you can balance their health around defending (high value), but still have them be the glass cannon when they're being used for deep raids.