Hybrid woes 3.189

[Rustayne]

So I started a new game to do some more testing.  I'm about 4 or so hours in, got a few planets captured, but I've ran into a roadblock it seems.  The next system in line for me to get out to the rest of the map, is blocked off, with 145 hybrids.  They are covering the station so well that I can't even see it, and when I send something in, they quickly make me regret it.  Both AI's have advanced hives, and regular ones as well, so I assume that is the reason for so many, but I'm at an impasse as to how to deal with this.  If anyone has any ideas of what they might do in this instance, please let me know.

[Diazo]

Go around?

I ran into the same thing, except earlier in the game so it was fewer hybrids blocking me, but the same effect in that I didn't have enough forces to take them on.

I ended up doing an end run around the system and came back later with a more powerful fleet and after some of the hybrids had left for other systems.

This assumes you are playing a map type you can go around on. From the sounds of it you are on one of the linear maps and can't go around.

In that case, lighting missile spam? Or Nuke it? Save first in case I'm wrong, but hybrids will not hang around a system without a command post. You can't pop the command post with your fleet in that setup but missiles might allow you to pop the command post.

Regardless, that is one tough setup.

D.

[Rustayne]

Going around isn't exactly an option hehe.  I need to get to that spot to be able to access the rest of the map.  I'm playing on an X type.  I'm thinking I might emp the system, and take transports in and dump on the station and hope for the best.  I'm just amazed at how many built up in only 4 or so hours.  Couple that with all the ships they spawn, and it is just an overwhelming force of power.  Thankfully, they all haven't for my world.  They only come at like 10 or so at a time.  At least now they are making it challenging again.

[Ozymandiaz]

145? That sounds like an awefull lot of em.

I have had like max 6 or 7 on my planets on avarage. (no advanced hives)

[keith.lamothe]

Hmm, yea, my suggestion is baiting them to pass right over the wormhole you're coming from (possibly by sending a transport and unloading some units sufficiently far away), and slamming them with lightning-missile-in-the-face when they do.  Rinse, repeat  Or distract them in some other direction and sneak a force through to the other side.  Or distract them and pop the command station with a lightning/armored missle or something (I forget if some station variants are immune to that), and the defending hybrids will generally disperse to take other missions.

But wow, 145  It makes sense since a single AI's population cap for hybrids on a large map is typically in the 70-110 range (planets / 5 + spawners * 4, so say 120 / 5 + 20 * 4 = 24 + 80 = 104), and since you've got them both on.  Also, 4 hours  sounds like it would be just enough, since the spawns take about 25 minutes, and 240 / 25 > 9; 9 * 20 = 180.  This is assuming roughly 20 MkIV/Core/Home AI worlds, and you probably actually have more than that.  One thing that isn't immediately obvious about higher-planet-count games is that they have a significantly higher percentage of IV planets

But yea, this is a good example of why the defending hybrids should have some logic for switching to attacker-types when they've got the humans completely choke-pointed.  Strategically speaking it's probably wiser to camp the system with 145 hybrids (it's not much different from what a lot of human players do), and they've basically won the game by doing it unless you can pull off something pretty impressive.  But it would be more interesting if they would take the offensive and make your loss quicker and hopefully more fun

Also should probably tweak the spawner seed amount down from 1 per IV/Core/Home world, and then multiply it by the number of human player/homeworlds.  Ironically we're simultaneously getting situations like this one where the hybrids are roflcamping (or roflstomping) single-hw players but are providing inadequate challenge in multiplayer

[superking]

this sounds like a job for Nuclear Missle MK III !

[superking]

seriously though, is this *really* desirable behavior? there is no way even multiple players could amass a fleet capable of defeating 145 hybrids... some kind of hybrid shipcap linked to AIP/Difficulty would probably be a welcome nod in the direction of sanity...  

[Rustayne]

Well my EMP trick worked.  Luckily it was only a mk2 planet, so it had a 500k station, but there were 32 hive nodes on there, so I get a feeling that is why there were so many.  I am however not sure if this were a MK4 planet if I would of had enough power to destroy the station.  After the station did get popped, they split up to a degree, with 15 or so coming towards me.  They swiftly got met with my rebuilt fleet, and some heavy beam cannons.  Now about these nodes, are they supposed to be spawned 30 per planet?  Does the advanced hybrids build them as they are needed?  So far, between the last 2 planets I've killed, I've killed about 60 of them, along with around 45-50 FF 1's that are covering them.  From the looks of my save, i got 22 more heading up to the center of the X, and can only imagine what is up ahead for me

Want to make a note to say that I'm really enjoying their toughness.  They definitely are keeping it very interesting, and the new tactics I'm trying out to defeat them has made it completely different from what I'm used to.

[keith.lamothe]

seriously though, is this *really* desirable behavior? there is no way even multiple players could amass a fleet capable of defeating 145 hybrids...

No way?  I've found y'all quite inventive at such things   Also, remember that this is with both the base and advanced plots enabled (and plots are intended to be pretty advanced as-is), on a map type that is prone to chokepointing.  If you want sanity then I suggest only enabling hybrids for one AI

Anyway, it sounds like the builder hybrids were going hog-wild on building up that planet's defenses and facilities.  One thing we did fairly recently was switch from 47.5/47.5/5 to 40/30/30 on the attacker/defender/builder ratio to cut down on the size of the roadblocks people were getting (and moderately cut down on attack size).  Yea, this is with the reduction   Of course, once one of the builders gets around to throwing up a decent construction module factory, they no longer need to go to a different planet to get those modules and will just keep building (unless there's more than one eligible planet for building in which case they will pick weighted-randomly between them whenever they finish something), though it generally takes them 15 minutes (iirc) even to finish a small turret cluster.

[Rustayne]

Ahh.  I see.  Then it sounds like they are doing their job very effectively.  Since I'm testing another bug out, I imagine the hybrids are going to get very interesting later on with the higher AI progress.  At least I can use all the EMP's I need to pacify them enough to take out my targets.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, a player who isn't afraid to use EMPs can be a force to be reckoned with

And the Hybrids aren't directly impacted by AIP, though of course with the Hybrids continuing to make your life difficult things could get nasty when the "main AI" starts taking the gloves off.

[Rustayne]

Yea, that is what worries me.  10-15 hybrids aren't much when you have a shield inhibitor, along with a black hole machine, and 80-90 spiders shooting there engines out. 

I do wonder though how a single player will fare come later on in the game.  Generally I'm playing with someone else, which has that added bonus of 2x the ships, so I'm quite interested on leaving some feedback when I either finish what I'm testing out, or when I die, whichever comes first.   So far though, I do really enjoy them, but I figured I should make sure they were working as intended. 

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, thanks very much for the feedback   These certainly aren't done; they seem to be doing a great job (in single player) of making winning much harder for the player, but I'll want to shift a lot of that into actually making the player lose

[Mánagarmr]

*shameless thread steal* How about those shortcuts, Keith? H and G for hybrid filters on the galaxy map? *puppy eyes*

[Ozymandiaz]

Hmm, apparently the hybrids are accumulating at a choke point in one of my games now as well.

But luckily its a choke point I only hold for defense and never use since I got other better ways to reach the AI

Do regular non-advanced hybrids build stuff as well? That have built like 5 force fields around the Cmd at that particular planet (I had advanced activated for this game).