Hybrid Issues

[Ozymandiaz]

Would it be an idea to add a hybrid spawner icon on the galaxy overview for the planets?

[Shrugging Khan]

My method is 1) Expendable Territory, 2) Bigger Guns, and 3) Target Prioritisation.

I concentrate fire of all suitable guns on one hybrid, then on the next, then the next. I'm even experimenting with focus fire for non-sniper units, but I've yet to make any solid observations. Basically, the whole thing boils down killing hybrids off with speed every time they attack. It's not perfect, and bombers are still the first thing that I shoot down even before the hybrids, but it nicely things them out without having to risk my fleet.

[Shrugging Khan]

I just want to report that, after some testing, I can safely say that enabling non-sniper focussed fire is an excellent choice when dealing with hybrids. The 20-turret-per-type setup that used to take minutes chewing on hybrids now bites down hard and fast.

[TechSY730]

I just want to report that, after some testing, I can safely say that enabling non-sniper focussed fire is an excellent choice when dealing with hybrids. The 20-turret-per-type setup that used to take minutes chewing on hybrids now bites down hard and fast.

Yea, I love the the focus fire targeting logic. After all, what is more dangerous: 5 Hybrids at 80% health each, or 4 hybrids (because one died already)?

This is why focusing on one target at a time in almost all RTSs is so important; in almost all RTSs, a unit at 1 HP can do just as much damage a unit at 100% HP, but as soon as it hits 0 HP, it can deal no damage.
Better to focus and kill one unit than to evenly spread the damage across all the units. It's silly, and not at all realistic, but an odd strategy made valid thanks to this unrealistic convention that RTSs have now evolved to have.

[Shrugging Khan]

It's a convention that makes me want to puke my gall out. HP-chipping and the like are something I never liked, in any game.

But with hybrids you can at the least say that they can be partially disabled thanks to their module system...so it's almost sad I never make use of that, killing them with concentrated fire instead 

[Sir t]

What would you have as an alternative system?

[Shrugging Khan]

Ach, the usual. Have the Engines, guns, (computers/crew?), (fuel and/or ammo storages?), special abilities like tractor beams or tachyon emitters, and also the armour as components that can be gradually reduced in effectiveness or outright destroyed; similar to the engine damage system - but less dependant on the attacker (since right now, you need to have special engine damaging properties to deal engine damage. Huh.), and more on where the shot hits.

Of course, that's all complicated, and realism junkies like me will have to concede that AIW isn't exactly realistic in the first place.

[TechSY730]

I've seen at least one turn based game where the attack power of the unit goes down as its HP goes down. Yes, this does mean the person/ship/whatever who hits first gets a massive advantage, but isn't that how it works in real life?

However, IMO, this is an acceptable break from reality. Yes, something that is almost dead is almost no threat in real life (in most cases), thus making "spreading damage around" a viable tactic (and in many cases, a superior tactic, unlike most RTSs and TBSs, where it is the other way around) but that certainly isn't much fun do deal with. This is in large part due to the MASSIVE unstable equilibrium a reduction of power with reduction of HP type mechanic brings up, and easily destabilized unstable equilibriums, in general, are not fun, especially if it is caused by something that needs massive micro to take advantage of, and even then it is in large part still luck based.

How much fun would a fighting game be if a character had less damage potential and mobility as they lost HP?

[Shrugging Khan]

Actually, pretty fun since you can do the same to your enemies and have crippled, helpless husks lying around awaiting your mercy.

[keith.lamothe]

Unfortunately, a reduce-effectiveness-with-damage model tends to encourage significantly more micro than the simpler model, and is way, way harder on the cpu due to all the extra calculations to compute values that can otherwise be unchanging.

It's certainly much more feasible for a game that is on a smaller number-of-units scale, and for a game that's more tactically than strategically oriented.  Though in those cases I prefer a model where the ship actually has distinct parts (modules, if you like) that take damage separately (and, probably, degrade in performance with damage).

But with AI War's scale and strategic focus, there's really no room for either kind of more complex model.

Maybe one day we'll make that other game

[Shrugging Khan]

Hah, looking forward to that 

Anyways, another little hybrid killer: Basic Turrets. 2250 Knowledge spent for all mk levels, which is less than the price of almost any other turret mkII, and for a low cost of resources and energy, you suddenly deal millions of damage points per second.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, basic turrets are a good example of why it's easy to make fun of little cheap guns until there's suddenly a ridiculous number of them all pointed at you

[Red Spot]

I've seen at least one turn based game where the attack power of the unit goes down as its HP goes down. Yes, this does mean the person/ship/whatever who hits first gets a massive advantage, but isn't that how it works in real life?

Shoot a tank with your gun, do you think its cannon now hurts less ?
Try it .... 

[chemical_art]

I've seen at least one turn based game where the attack power of the unit goes down as its HP goes down. Yes, this does mean the person/ship/whatever who hits first gets a massive advantage, but isn't that how it works in real life?

Shoot a tank with your gun, do you think its cannon now hurts less ?
Try it ....  

Well, if my gun hits the tank's ammo magazine, it sure does  .

[keith.lamothe]

I've seen at least one turn based game where the attack power of the unit goes down as its HP goes down. Yes, this does mean the person/ship/whatever who hits first gets a massive advantage, but isn't that how it works in real life?

Shoot a tank with your gun, do you think its cannon now hurts less ?
Try it ....  

Well, if my gun hits the tank's ammo magazine, it sure does  .

Or if it deforms the barrel, or if it knocks out the electronics for tracking or the motor for turning the turret, or if it gives the gunner a concussion (or incapacitates them entirely), etc, etc.  Lots of things that could reduce the accuracy of the shots, disable the weapon, etc.  This is assuming you're using a gun capable of damaging the tank at all, of course.

And if you've hit the tank _several_ times and it's got the equivalent of a red health bar in AI War, it's almost certainly operating with reduced offensive capacity.

We just use an abstraction since modeling that kind of detail at our scale would overload both the computer and the player's ability to intelligently interact with that kind of complexity.  If you were only working with a squadron of a dozen or so ships, that would be different.