Author Topic: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...  (Read 5514 times)

Offline Kjara

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2010, 02:16:23 pm »
80, realistic-hubs, no astro-trains and fd of course.  One ai world was 11 hops from my home, the other was 8.

Offline x4000

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2010, 02:17:22 pm »
80, realistic-hubs, no astro-trains and fd of course.  One ai world was 11 hops from my home, the other was 8.

Wow, nice!!
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Offline Velox

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2010, 02:47:17 pm »
It took them a whole 2.5 hours?  That seems like it should become a competition, how fast can you beat ai 1/1's :).
I think they had realized by that point what was up, but for the first while they were just really pleased with themselves.

This highlights a good point about game design and user experience.

An example.
I managed to play Elite for years while fooling myself that there were  'pirate bases' that relied upon pillaging to build their fleets and planets that needed medical supplies and an economy behind the trading and so forth, not because there was a lot in the game to support those impressions, but because there was nothing really to destroy the illusion.
I knew it was just my imagination and the game didn't do anything (intentionally or accidently) to spoil it.

Then came along similar games that really did try to have economies and supply mechanisms etc (like X2 or  Supreme Ruler (not Supreme Commander) or I dunno a million of these type games) and the slightest little inconsistency spoils the whole illusion.
The asymmetrical AI concept (among other things) in AI War is an approach that really makes the experience work, and the above quote shows it.
dM

     This is a fantastic point - it's quite insightful about what makes the AI War experience work so well.  If I might add my two cents on the theme -

     1.  In any game, it becomes clear after a while that you are playing against an AI, and that the responses are programmatic.  That often ruins the illusion; it's quite clever to make that part of the game premise and thus enhance the atmosphere instead. 

     2 - In most games, once you figure out the AI's behaviors and how to exploit its weaknesses then the challenge is gone.  In this one, figuring out the AI's behaviors and exploiting its weaknesses is your only hope.

Offline Shardz

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2010, 02:57:11 pm »
I've been bouncing back and forth between AI War complete and X2: Reunion with the Xtended mod for the past few weeks and have noticed some of the same things you mention here. Whereas XTM is more of an epic 3D RPG/Simulation game, the two have some minor similarities. I can't help but yearn to see the intelligence of AI War in a XTM type of engine/scenario, though. The AI in X2: Reunion in general is pretty lame and can be outwitted fairly easily and I haven't gotten that feeling of grand satisfaction that I get in AI War with a major conquest battle taking over a planet.

As far as Elite goes, I'm a Freelancer fan from way back (especially with the Discovery mod) and I know what you mean about illusion in the economy and in some parts of the game. After a while the illusion is shattered and you realize you are just a little mesh in a big engine putting around shooting neat graphics around with pretty space backgrounds to look at. This takes me back to my substance argument that AI Wars really lays down the meat on the table instead of trying to dummy up a game engine with nice 3D visuals and effects and call it a living, thriving world.

One thing that truly eludes me here with AI War and Chris's efforts is how one man can concoct such an intelligent and articulate AI model when for years the corporate studios with millions of dollars in funding failed in doing so. Westwood really didn't get there. Blizzard didn't quite hit the mark. Even Bullfrog (or Lionhead Studios), as insanely clever as they were, really didn't manage to create a unique AI model that would challenge the player like AI War does. I believe that all in all, most gamers would love to see this kind of AI in their 3D games down the line, as well! It doesn't even have to be in the form of 60,000 units taking over a planet, but something that hunts, stalks, blockades, flanks, and ultimately baffles the player's logic and reacts intelligently to what you are doing.

I remember way back in the day when the first successful Quake bot was created (can't remember the name) and that author was then hired at 3D Realms to work on the AI for Unreal to do exactly what I mentioned above. Instead of having the usual swarms of critters in a 3D shooter game, there would be a few highly articulate AI units to hunt you down and try to outsmart your every move. Even as relatively well done as that was, that still pales quite a bit to what we are seeing with Chris's efforts and perhaps some sort of patent is in order here! :)    


It took them a whole 2.5 hours?  That seems like it should become a competition, how fast can you beat ai 1/1's :).
I think they had realized by that point what was up, but for the first while they were just really pleased with themselves.

This highlights a good point about game design and user experience.

An example.
I managed to play Elite for years while fooling myself that there were  'pirate bases' that relied upon pillaging to build their fleets and planets that needed medical supplies and an economy behind the trading and so forth, not because there was a lot in the game to support those impressions, but because there was nothing really to destroy the illusion.
I knew it was just my imagination and the game didn't do anything (intentionally or accidently) to spoil it.

Then came along similar games that really did try to have economies and supply mechanisms etc (like X2 or  Supreme Ruler (not Supreme Commander) or I dunno a million of these type games) and the slightest little inconsistency spoils the whole illusion.
The asymmetrical AI concept (among other things) in AI War is an approach that really makes the experience work, and the above quote shows it.
Another similarity AI War bears to  'Enders Game', where his experience bears, shall we say, a similar relationship to the 'reality' (OSC seems to raise this theme a lot, to do with his issues about the subjective nature of morality and reality or something)
For this reason, changing 'AI Progress' to 'AI Alert' or 'AI Alarm' or even 'AI Disgruntlement' (kidding) would remove something that just doesn't sit right with the immersion for me.
Anyway, Back to the 'Game'...
dM



Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2010, 03:04:20 pm »
You should then see the TF2 bots which are nearly human like and i have seen a lot of people that couldn't tell the difference between bots and humans in TF2. Imo for a complex team shooter like TF2 this means a lot. And it is even more befuddling because the bots in l4d1 and 2 are absolutely retarded. Both the Zombies and the Survivors

Of course, the bots still can't compete against exploits or highly advanced teamwork between humans... but still ;)

I think.. the main reason big studios don't touch the AI levels of AI War is that it would depress too many people. We are long past a society were gaming means challenge.. most console kiddies only look for instant gratification. Which is what the big studios cater to.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2010, 11:01:37 am »
Very cool points, Velox.  It's interesting that this sort of came about by accident -- well, actually it was inevitable.  I had set out to create AI War specifically for the purpose of creating awesome AI in it (it's name was AI War from the start, and just kind of stuck), and so all of the focus of the gameplay was ultimately around facing this AI enemy that is more powerful than you, etc.  The story and general scenario design grew up around that sort of concept, and most of the strategies that evolved out of the game (gate raiding, etc) were either things that came up organically through alpha testing, or which were sort of hinted at through those early play experiences, and which I then purposefully cultivated with units and mechanics to support them.

I've written before about my iterative development methods, and so I've always known that AI War was both the product of intent and an evolutionary refinement process.  But, what has occurred to me for the first time is this: given the initial intent (my immutable goals), some of the aspects of the game that developed later were an inevitability.  Like Neo from the Matrix or what have you. :)

But my point is that with the premise of having an overpowering AI opponent, and that that opponent is the only opponent in the game (no pvp, nothing scripted), then Velox's two points become an inevitability, even if the designer/programmer of the game doesn't know it.  Given that premise, of course the players know they are playing an AI, and of course the strategies will then tend to center around exploiting the AI.  Assuming that the game designer knows how to exploit his own AI, that will become a necessary part of the game, but in a more subtle sense than in other strategy games.  It becomes, in essence, as foregone a conclusion as rushing in a pvp RTS.  That's certainly a new way to look at it for me!

Shardz, regarding your comments, I think that there are two main reasons that I was able to concoct my sort of AI while the larger studios were not:

1. That was the central design goal of the game, above anything and everything else, and as a game designer I was willing to redesign any other aspect of the game if it would better serve the AI -- which, as you'll note, I had to do repeatedly.  So, in essence, I wound up making a game environment that was super, super conductive to AI, rather than having to bend my AI to whatever game environment had already been thought up.

2. When it comes to RTS, almost all of my experiences in the last 10 years have been against various AIs, and so I have a wealth of knowledge on how to exploit the best of those AIs, and what was unexploitable in the various other games I'd played.  I don't think that many game designers, let alone many AI programmers, have that sort of knowledge cache.  So this made me rather uniquely suited to this specific task, I think.  I'd have far less luck in any other genre, but RTS was the perfect fit for me.

At any rate, now that I've done what I've done, I'm hoping that the general ideas and concepts I've put forth will be copied by others.  Let's face it, as amazing as Civilization I or Warcraft I or Age of Empires I were, their main legacy was how they left a permanent mark on their genres.  I'm fundamentally against patents in general, as I think they stifle ideas.  The only reason I'd need a patent was if I was worried about someone copying what I do and then being more successful with the idea.  By the time anyone can do that, I'll be another few steps ahead of them, both in terms of the development of AI War, and in broadening out into other concepts.  Also, as I've noted, I have a rather unique cache of knowledge that makes me particularly suited to creating this sort of thing -- I doubt if any team that was solely bent on copying other IP would be able to successfully do it in this case.
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Offline Ruges

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2010, 12:20:31 pm »
EDIT: So what happens when you kill every AI Unit in the game anyway?

Nothing happens. once you kill the last command post it just says you win. I must say I was a bit disapointed with this. I was hoping for some end video, or somthing special. Maybe even just some sappy text story of how you have freed the galaxy, but not the universe. Maybe even somthing hinting towards an exspansion. Just somthing to recognize you have beaten the game. more then just the text you win.

Offline HellishFiend

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Re: Do you know this feeling, its why i play AI War...
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2010, 02:46:53 pm »
EDIT: So what happens when you kill every AI Unit in the game anyway?

Nothing happens. once you kill the last command post it just says you win. I must say I was a bit disapointed with this. I was hoping for some end video, or somthing special. Maybe even just some sappy text story of how you have freed the galaxy, but not the universe. Maybe even somthing hinting towards an exspansion. Just somthing to recognize you have beaten the game. more then just the text you win.

Yeah, a sappy follow up to the scrolling intro text on the main menu would be cool.
Time to roll out another ball of death.