How did the AIs win...

[Drjones013]

... if they're so reactive? I'd assumed that AIP is something that the AIs used to gauge strategic importance of certain targets (I realize that mechanically this isn't how it works but as a DM I'm always thinking RP). We know the AI is fighting something else somewhere and this makes me believe (from the RP standpoint) that certain assumptions may be made:

1) The AI main production facilities are no longer in our galactic maps. The AIs' moved its factories closer to the new threat and periodically sends reinforcements through the wormholes.

2) AIP increases in our galaxy competes with AIP against the AIs' main opponent. Strategically the AIs' have to decide between fighting their extragalactic opponent or diverting resources against the human rebellion.

3) Tactically the AIs' main goal is to stall the human rebellion: an outright diversion of forces away from the extragalactic opponent would result in a loss.

4) The AIs' cannot afford to lose their homeworlds in this region. This would result in a loss which would ultimately destroy humanity (which they were programmed to defend). The AIs' might interpret the defending of humanity to be 'a biologically diverse population' which could be defined as less than 20,000-- they could kill off the rest of the population and still be following their directives.

Is this more or less what's going on?

[KDR_11k]

The AI's primary economy is outside the galaxy, yes, but we have no idea how much there is. If it's on the level of Petey even an AIP of 1000 would not call for any significant chunk of its forces.

Also I think at some point Keith stated that the exogalactic threat the AI is fighting is the Spire Empire.

[keith.lamothe]

1 and 2, basically. 

Partially 3, given the background added by the FS journals, though it could easily crush the humans without diverting excessively from that front.

Not really 4, though maybe that's what Chris had in mind

Also I think at some point Keith stated that the exogalactic threat the AI is fighting is the Spire Empire.

The FS journals state that the AI is in a pitched battle with the main imperial spire powerbase in Andromeda and that its main production facilities (known to the speaker) are in that galaxy.  However, that doesn't mean it's the only or main threat that the AI is diverted by, etc.

It's pretty intentionally vague, all-around.

[TechSY730]

2) AIP increases in our galaxy competes with AIP against the AIs' main opponent. Strategically the AIs' have to decide between fighting their extragalactic opponent or diverting resources against the human rebellion.

This one is a pretty cool "lore" idea and how it ties into in-game behavior.
It explains why the AI "freaks out" comparatively when you start helping the Spire in the Fallen spire, far stronger than you will likely ever see just by yourself (unless you do something silly like boost AIP to 10000 or something).
Because of this strongly hinted "grief" the Spire has been giving the AI, the "Spire AIP" is much, MUCH higher than the "human AIP". So when the AI is reacting to Spire threats (which it just so happens that some of it is in your territory, you crazy commander you ), the stuff it sends is usually far, FAR stronger than the stuff the AI sends when it is reacting to you.

[Mánagarmr]

I had an AIP of 13k once after having fun. The AI sent 15 million ships after me. That was "fun".

[Aeson]

Well, in answer to the thread's title in combination with the first sentence of the OP:

It's been my impression that most (or possibly all) of the war machines, and possibly also the means of producing the war machines, of the human factions in the civil war described by the opening text scrawl were AI-controlled. The AIs would therefore have had control over a massive military force, as compared to a relatively small force (potentially no force, at least at the start) under the control of the humans, when the AI rebellion occurred. Since the AIs were most likely charged with the protection (and perhaps the operation) of all major production centers and would have had a fair amount of forces at those locations in case of raids or other attacks (and, depending on just how much the AIs collaborated and planned before the rebellion, could perhaps have arranged things so that increased 'protection' was necessary or justifiable), the AIs would probably have quickly seized control over such facilities. The same is probably true for major population centers.

Thus, any human resistance would be based around whatever small forces of human-controlled warships were available and survived the initial uprising, any AI-controlled vessels that the humans were able to seize control of, and whatever they could build at small production centers that were not considered important enough to have much of an AI-controlled defensive force present. From a historical/roleplaying perspective, the AIs might even have primarily focused on wiping out the faction that they were tasked to destroy, since it would allow them a little more time before the humans realized that their AIs had betrayed them - not having the forces in place to defend against an attack can be a failure of intelligence, a calculated risk to allow an offensive (and since the 'friendly' AI would have been preparing a major offensive, you'd be able to point to preparations for that as a reason why the defensive forces were lacking), or a betrayal by an ally (in this case the AI), and deciding which it was could take some time.

I rather suspect that a game mode based at the time of the AI rebellion would be very similar to Defender Mode (it might even be Defender Mode, since the goal there is to survive the onslaught rather than destroy the AI homeworlds), with the exception that I think you'd start with AI ships on many of your worlds, and there would be a border of some kind or another between your faction and some enemy human faction, since the the AIs began cooperating before the humans did.

[Draco18s]

I had an AIP of 13k once after having fun. The AI sent 15 million ships after me. That was "fun".

That's the one!  That was post-mk3-nuke wasn't it?

[Winge]

Remember, the AIP is only because the humans have been forced into a guerrilla war.  The AIs crushed humanity, and then turned their attention outside of the Milky Way galaxy.  Defending against an insurgent force is much, much different than fighting a full-fledged war.  That is why 'staying under the radar'--aka low AIP--is so important in this game.  The last thing humanity needs is to convince the AI that they are worth even a partial effort (FS being an exception to the rule; as humanity is allying with a stronger force).

I had an AIP of 13k once after having fun. The AI sent 15 million ships after me. That was "fun".

That's the one!  That was post-mk3-nuke wasn't it?

I kind of want to do something like that, only bigger (assuming you're not completely maxed out  ).  I'm curious to see how large of an incoming force I can get.  Only problem is, I might not survive the necessary 10/10 to get that far...

[Histidine]

I shudder to think at what kind of power the AI must wield "behind the scenes" as it were, if even the Imperial Spire in Andromeda aren't considered the primary threat to its continued existence

[keith.lamothe]

I shudder (...)

Then I'm doing my job

[LaughingThesaurus]

I shudder to think at what kind of power the AI must wield "behind the scenes" as it were, if even the Imperial Spire in Andromeda aren't considered the primary threat to its continued existence

Fully loaded motherships are basic starships in the biggest of wars.
Oh. And you thought mark Vs were the best? Nah, the AI's using its weakest models on us. The tech in their larger wars is off the charts.

Hooray, imagination!

[Aeson]

I kind of want to do something like that, only bigger (assuming you're not completely maxed out  ).  I'm curious to see how large of an incoming force I can get.  Only problem is, I might not survive the necessary 10/10 to get that far...

If you want to do this in a legitimate game, I'd suggest trying something along the lines of a Snake 120 planet map with as many AIP increasing structures as possible available, start with multiple homeworlds and champions for the wave-increasing effects and extra firepower, and attempt a "must take everything" strategy, then start setting off nukes. Might want Fallen Spire on, as well, for the extra firepower and defensive strength. Whatever map type you choose to try, you should probably make certain you can put a single chokepoint in place that everything must go through in order to hit you.

Alternatively, if you aren't opposed to a little cheating to experiment on how large of an incoming force you can get, you could give yourself a bunch of nukes for upping the AIP very quickly at the start of the game. You can find the cheats on the ArcenWiki if you want to try doing things this way.

Fully loaded motherships are basic starships in the biggest of wars.
Oh. And you thought mark Vs were the best? Nah, the AI's using its weakest models on us. The tech in their larger wars is off the charts.

Hooray, imagination!

Nonsense, the tech in the larger worlds is not off the charts! You just need to start using log(log(log(log(log(x))))) charts in order to properly graph their power. And that gives you the mark number in scientific notation in the form XeY, with Y in the range of 1 to 11 (we had to adjust our scale - it used to be 0 to 10, but that wasn't large enough). Have a nice day.

I shudder to think at what kind of power the AI must wield "behind the scenes" as it were, if even the Imperial Spire in Andromeda aren't considered the primary threat to its continued existence

Note that Keith did not say that the Imperial Spire is not the primary threat to the continued existence of the AI, only that the Imperial Spire is not necessarily the only or main threat. In other words, you don't have enough information on the things the AI considers to be threats to tell what the AI considers to be the main threat to it. As the player, you know that:
1. You, the (probably) dominant faction of human rebels, are not the main threat to the AI - you can only do what you can because the AI is distracted
2. The AI is distracted by something (or perhaps several somethings) outside the galaxy
3. The Imperial Spire is (probably) the strongest non-human and non-AI faction that you've come across so far. Also, the Imperial Spire is not based inside the Milky Way, so it is an 'outside of the galaxy' threat to the AI
4. The Zenith and the Neinzul probably do not represent an outside-the-galaxy threat to the AI (while we don't necessarily know that the Neinzul and Zenith are from the Milky Way, I don't think it's ever been indicated that they aren't from the Milky Way, and the Spire were stated to not be from the Milky Way, so safest assumption is that the Zenith and Neinzul are from the Milky Way rather than another galaxy), although at least some of the Zenith factions show evidence of having the potential to be major threats, and things like the Dyson Sphere give evidence that the Zenith were at least once a very powerful faction. The AI also appears to have good relations with the Neinzul (better, at any rate, than the Humans do, since most of the Neinzul stuff seems to be AI-ally), so, while the AI might have some forces guarding against Neinzul activities, the Neinzul are not likely to take up a significant amount of the attention of the AI. The Zenith factions probably rate some concern for the AI, but not enough that the AI will really start doing much about them, and unless they group together the individual factions are more likely to rate as an inconvenience than as a major threat.
5. The AI homeworlds are locally important to the AI, perhaps as central processing nodes for the local sector of AI-controlled space (or possibly for the galaxy), but probably aren't so important to the AI that the lose greatly injures the AI's activities since if the loss of the homeworlds had the potential to greatly injure AI operations on more than the local level I would expect them to have much greater defenses than they currently have (though this could also be evidence of the AI disregarding the Human factions as a threat)

[LaughingThesaurus]

Nonsense, the tech in the larger worlds is not off the charts! You just need to start using log(log(log(log(log(x))))) charts in order to properly graph their power. And that gives you the mark number in scientific notation in the form XeY, with Y in the range of 1 to 11 (we had to adjust our scale - it used to be 0 to 10, but that wasn't large enough). Have a nice day.

Thank you for your information. The AI Hunter Killer Mark 1.47 x 10^8 will be by shortly to wipe you off the map and dispose of the scout intel that you have escaped with, rebel scum.

[Pluto]

Alternatively, if you aren't opposed to a little cheating to experiment on how large of an incoming force you can get, you could give yourself a bunch of nukes for upping the AIP very quickly at the start of the game. You can find the cheats on the ArcenWiki if you want to try doing things this way.

Crashed the game w/ a 52 million ship wave to see how it'd go.  Couldn't come close to handling it.  Guess that could be potentially representative of the AI's power outside the galaxy.

[Aeson]

Thank you for your information. The AI Hunter Killer Mark 1.47 x 10^8 will be by shortly to wipe you off the map and dispose of the scout intel that you have escaped with, rebel scum.

Crap, I knew I should have kept that experimental cloaking device I stole from the AI's Mark 9.8X10^11 scout starship, and that shield generator that had a chance of making incoming fire disappear from one of the antiques that the AI had lying around.

Crashed the game w/ a 52 million ship wave to see how it'd go.  Couldn't come close to handling it.  Guess that could be potentially representative of the AI's power outside the galaxy.

Or not, it looks like that Hunter Killer Mark 1.47X10^8 might have been diverted to deal with Pluto. Still, running for the Nebulae while I still can!