Author Topic: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?  (Read 6220 times)

Offline Toranth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2013, 08:16:58 pm »
If Mk IIIs survived 3 shots, and Mk IVs survived 4 shots, you'd see a total damage of 840,000,000 and 992,000,000 respectively at max resources.
The additional survival time of each mark would, as you point out, reduce the resource consumption rate.  For Mark III, you'd hit full capacity producing 48/sec, while Mark IVs would be full at 32/sec.
That's a resource drain under the current model of roughly 4750/sec or 5000/sec, and a DPS of about 2,600,000 or 2,400,000.
So basically you are saying that even with the extra shots for mark 3/4 railpod still would not be worthwhile due to damage/conversion? Hmm if you were going to make railpod attractive how would you go about it? Extra damage? More shots than I describe earlier?
With Railpods being a suicide unit, they are a way to quickly convert resources to damage.  That means the most important thing about them is the efficiency at which they convert resources to damage.  This means you'll normally be spamming only the Mark with the highest efficiency, leaving the other Marks unused.  Caps and per-unit stats don't matter as much as with normal units, because in the end production rate and damage per resource dominate.
The Mark III and Mark IV getting upgraded shots would improve them - you would get a better unit each time your purchased/acquired a higher Mark.  Compared to Mark Is, you'd have an efficiency of (1, 1.03, 1.13, 1.33).  That an improvement at each step, which means you get at least SOMETHING for the Knowledge you'd spend to unlock the next Mark.  Is it worth the K, though, is the real question.

Just to be clear, I like the Railpod Mk I.  It's a fine ship, very good for burst combat and emergency defenses.  It's just the Mks II-IV that I see little need to ever use right now.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 01:09:31 am »
With Railpods being a suicide unit, they are a way to quickly convert resources to damage.  That means the most important thing about them is the efficiency at which they convert resources to damage.  This means you'll normally be spamming only the Mark with the highest efficiency, leaving the other Marks unused.  Caps and per-unit stats don't matter as much as with normal units, because in the end production rate and damage per resource dominate.
The Mark III and Mark IV getting upgraded shots would improve them - you would get a better unit each time your purchased/acquired a higher Mark.  Compared to Mark Is, you'd have an efficiency of (1, 1.03, 1.13, 1.33).  That an improvement at each step, which means you get at least SOMETHING for the Knowledge you'd spend to unlock the next Mark.  Is it worth the K, though, is the real question.

Just to be clear, I like the Railpod Mk I.  It's a fine ship, very good for burst combat and emergency defenses.  It's just the Mks II-IV that I see little need to ever use right now.

After some time thinking on it, I am not sure what we can make railpod beyond mark 1 attractive.

You did missed one suicide unit, Spire Ram. I am curious how it stack up damage wise.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 02:45:49 am »
Just throwing this out there...redux on the m/c cost per MK. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 09:09:03 am »
With Railpods being a suicide unit, they are a way to quickly convert resources to damage.  That means the most important thing about them is the efficiency at which they convert resources to damage.  This means you'll normally be spamming only the Mark with the highest efficiency, leaving the other Marks unused.  Caps and per-unit stats don't matter as much as with normal units, because in the end production rate and damage per resource dominate.
The Mark III and Mark IV getting upgraded shots would improve them - you would get a better unit each time your purchased/acquired a higher Mark.  Compared to Mark Is, you'd have an efficiency of (1, 1.03, 1.13, 1.33).  That an improvement at each step, which means you get at least SOMETHING for the Knowledge you'd spend to unlock the next Mark.  Is it worth the K, though, is the real question.

Just to be clear, I like the Railpod Mk I.  It's a fine ship, very good for burst combat and emergency defenses.  It's just the Mks II-IV that I see little need to ever use right now.

After some time thinking on it, I am not sure what we can make railpod beyond mark 1 attractive.

You did missed one suicide unit, Spire Ram. I am curious how it stack up damage wise.
The Spire Mini Ram is a specialist unit, because it can only hit large ships.  It's also rather weak at the moment, due to the results of the Starship rebalance.


Mark   Cost     Damage      Dam per Cost   Max Damage
13,000780,000520259,999,740
26,0001,560,000520259,999,740
312,0002,320,000386.67193,999,140
418,0003,120,000416207,999,792
Efficiency ratio is the usual (1, 1, .74, .67) vs Mk I. 

MiniRams only have a cap of 20 per Mark, cost 3,000 x Mk resources, and have a long build time.  Since their primary purpose is to do as much damage to very tough things (starships, Golems, etc) as fast as possible, having extra cap space from the higher marks used to be worth it.  Unfortunately, because of the rebalance, a full cap of Mk 1 MiniRams does 15,600,000 damage to a large target; that's not enough to kill a single Mk I Flagship.  It won't kill most Mk II starships at all, even a Leech, PSS, or Enclave.



Just throwing this out there...redux on the m/c cost per MK.
I think a resource reduction would need to be combined with constant damage - which makes it the same as constant resources with increasing damage (for efficiency).  Both reduced costs AND increasing damage would product too sharp an improvement.
Picking the resource cost is the problem with either constant or reducing costs.  If your resource cost halves each Mark increase, you end up with (1, 2, 4, 8) as your efficiency.  So, you'd need something odd like 40/30/20/10 as your resource costs.  Although it would produce a pleasant (1, 2, 3, 4) efficiency and a Max Damage of 468, 624, 936, 1872 million for each Mark.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 02:46:45 pm »
Just throwing this out there...redux on the m/c cost per MK.
I think a resource reduction would need to be combined with constant damage - which makes it the same as constant resources with increasing damage (for efficiency).  Both reduced costs AND increasing damage would product too sharp an improvement.
Picking the resource cost is the problem with either constant or reducing costs.  If your resource cost halves each Mark increase, you end up with (1, 2, 4, 8) as your efficiency.  So, you'd need something odd like 40/30/20/10 as your resource costs.  Although it would produce a pleasant (1, 2, 3, 4) efficiency and a Max Damage of 468, 624, 936, 1872 million for each Mark.

You also end up with a MK V that is dirt cheap and can run forever :)   No.. that wouldn't be very good.  Decrease the rate at which the resources go up.. say like 1, 1.75, 2.5, 3.25, 4.  So if MK I cost 100, MK II would be 175 (250,325,400 on up to V). 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 11:23:11 pm »
Just throwing this out there...redux on the m/c cost per MK.
I think a resource reduction would need to be combined with constant damage - which makes it the same as constant resources with increasing damage (for efficiency).  Both reduced costs AND increasing damage would product too sharp an improvement.
Picking the resource cost is the problem with either constant or reducing costs.  If your resource cost halves each Mark increase, you end up with (1, 2, 4, 8) as your efficiency.  So, you'd need something odd like 40/30/20/10 as your resource costs.  Although it would produce a pleasant (1, 2, 3, 4) efficiency and a Max Damage of 468, 624, 936, 1872 million for each Mark.

You also end up with a MK V that is dirt cheap and can run forever :)   No.. that wouldn't be very good.  Decrease the rate at which the resources go up.. say like 1, 1.75, 2.5, 3.25, 4.  So if MK I cost 100, MK II would be 175 (250,325,400 on up to V).
Oooh, reduced increase in cost.  Hmm.  Let's see, the normal cost ratio is (1, 2, 4, 6, 8), or
     Cost_ratio | Mk 2+ = base_cost * 2 * Mk. 
This can be re-written as
     Cost_ratio | Mk 2+ = base_cost + 2 * X * (Mk - 1);  where X is the increase, which defaults to base_cost for most ships.
Graphing out the efficiency ratios with this second equation [ F(x) = Mk / (1 + (Mk - 1) * x) ] produces a typical 1/x graph.  All marks intersect at X = 1/3, f(x) = 1.5.  That means, using the normal resource cost increase sequence (Mk II cost twice Mk I, Mk III twice Mk II), any step increase ratio of less than 1/3 base cost means the higher marks are less efficient.  At x=1/3, all Marks 2+ are equally efficient, 1.5 times as good as the Mk I.  At step increases less than 1/3, higher Marks are more efficient, but the cost increase are very small and the efficiency changes are very large... This implies that the Railpod probably shouldn't use the standard cost increase scaling.


If we do, as has been suggested above, a linear cost increase scale, we get
    Cost_ratio | Mk 2+ = base_cost + X * (Mk - 1); where X is the increase.
On this efficiency chart, all marks intersect at X=1:  Linear increase in cost matches linear increase in damage.  Bit obvious, but a good starting point.  Any increase ratio less than 1 causes higher marks to become more efficient, increase ratios greater than one are less efficient.
Again, however, there's an issue.  Even as the X approaches zero, and efficiencies for higher marks go way up, the difference between higher marks, say Mk III and Mk IV, gets much smaller.
In the X = 0.75 example you suggested, costs would be (1, 1.75, 2.5, 3.25, 4) and efficiency would be (1, 1.14, 1.2, 1.23, 1.25).  A good step from Mk I to Mk II, but little from Mk II to Mk III, and almost nothing from Mk III to Mk IV or Mk IV to Mk V.
This suggests that the only way to get a better efficiency increase is to reduce the increase in cost at each step.  For example (1, 2, 2.75, 3.25, 3.5); a cost increase of 100% from Mk I to Mk II, but only 75% from Mk II to Mk III, and so on.

I looked at a bunch of different charts for various X values and found what I think may be a good one.  (1, 1.8, 2.4, 2.8, 3.0).  This gives efficiency ratios of (1, 1.08, 1.22, 1.41, 1.68).
The actual table would look like this:
(Costs round up to nearest even number for High Caps compatibility)
Mark   Cost   Damage   Dam per Cost   Max Damage
1269,300715715,383,900
24818,600775774,999,225
36428,000875874,999,125
47437,20010051,005,404,400
57846,80012001,199,998,200

Mk I and Mk II are almost unchanged - slight improvements to Mk II, but only about 4%.  Mk III is 60% better than it was, and 22% better than the Mk I.  Mk IV is about twice as good as it was, and a file 41% better than the Mark I (rather than 33% worse).  The Mk V is 2.5x better than it was, and 68% better than the Mk I.
The costs for Mk I and Mk II are basically unchanged.  The Mk III is 35% cheaper, and the Mk IV is 50% cheaper.  The Mark V is 60% cheaper.  That's kind of significant - although the new Marks will still blow through Max resources in about 2-3 minutes using just MSDs.  Add in enginneers and you can go broke in mere seconds, just like before.


Of course, the other suggestion that was just as good and a lot simpler was just to adjust the number of shots each Railpod can survive.
If Shots = Mark,
Mark   Cost   Damage   Dam per Cost   Shots   Max Damage
1269,3603601359,999,640
25018,6007442743,999,256
310028,0008403839,999,160
415037,2009924991,999,008
520046,800117051,169,998,830
Efficiency (1, 2.06, 2.33, 2.75, 3.25) of the new Mk I or (0.5, 1.03, 1.17, 1.38, 1.63) of the old.
This is a 50% nerf to the Mk I, but a significant increase to each of the migher Marks.  Vyndicu had originally suggested having the Mk I keep 2 shots, in which case the Mk I would be unchanged.


Both of these ideas produce similar damage and efficiency charts, and both represent what I consider a good enough reason to upgrade to high Marks of Railpods. 

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2013, 04:47:10 am »
Of your two purposals, I'd go with the former.

The base unit, MK I, feels right and shouldn't be nerfed.

Secondly, it must be remembered that the efficiencies need to scale well at least pre IV in order to be worth the K. Right now with the later I'd still be in the boat of "get II, never get III"
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2013, 06:53:12 am »
Of your two purposals, I'd go with the former.

The base unit, MK I, feels right and shouldn't be nerfed.

Secondly, it must be remembered that the efficiencies need to scale well at least pre IV in order to be worth the K. Right now with the later I'd still be in the boat of "get II, never get III"
Yeah, the 100% jump from Mk I to Mk II is pretty big.  However, if the Mk I had two shots, as per Vyndicu, it's only a 3% jump to Mk II, which is pretty small. 
You could fix this by dropping the Mk I damage down to about 8500 but giving it 2 shots, while the others get their current damage but Mk shots.
That gives efficiencies of (1, 1.14, 1.28, 1.51, 1.79) - each Mark is about 15% better than the previous Mark.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 08:33:50 am »
How much do things change if you go MK+1 for the number of shots?  You might have to adjust damage per shot down on MK II-V but you get more shots total from MK II-V and longer lived ships will give you more in the field and maybe a slower burn on resources.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 10:53:21 am »
How much do things change if you go MK+1 for the number of shots?  You might have to adjust damage per shot down on MK II-V but you get more shots total from MK II-V and longer lived ships will give you more in the field and maybe a slower burn on resources.
I looked at Shots = Mk+1 before, but the damge gets a little crazy then.  Here, take a look:

Mark   Cost   Damage   Dam per Cost   Shots   Max Damage      Cap Burst Damage   
1269,3607202719,999,2803,594,240
25018,60074431,115,998,88410,713,600
310028,00056041,119,998,88021,504,000
415037,20049651,239,998,76035,712,000
520046,80046861,403,998,59653,913,600
At Mk II, a full spamming surpasses 1 billion damage.  That should probably take at least Mk III. 
Also, the burst damage (Aka, how much a full cap can do without producing new units) goes WAY up.  For reference, 35 million is how much burst damage Mk I-Mk IV Railpods currently produce, combined.
Finally, look at the Mk II to Mk III step - almost no gain.  In fact, the gain is due purely to the fact that the damage per shot is not linear (unlike most other units).  Mk II to Mk III is a little higher a step than the Mk I damage.  Otherwise, Mk II and Mk III will always be equal under Shots = Mark+1. 
(Easy to see why:  Mk II = 2x damage * 3x shots / 2x cost; Mk III = 3x damage * 4x shots / 4x cost)

Toning damage down to match the Shots = Mark is easy, just drop each damage level by about 1 Mark's worth.  Of course, that'd put Mk I at 0 damage, which is a little less than useful :/
But setting the Mk I damage to about 8,000 produces similar totals to the Shots = Mk listed above.  Again, though, the Mk II and Mk III are identical efficiency giving little reason to upgrade that step.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 12:18:03 pm »
Toning damage down to match the Shots = Mark is easy, just drop each damage level by about 1 Mark's worth.  Of course, that'd put Mk I at 0 damage, which is a little less than useful :/

No, it'd cut its current value in half. ;)
It has TWO shots, dropping it BY ONE leaves it AT ONE. ;)

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2013, 02:21:38 pm »
Of your two purposals, I'd go with the former.

The base unit, MK I, feels right and shouldn't be nerfed.

Secondly, it must be remembered that the efficiencies need to scale well at least pre IV in order to be worth the K. Right now with the later I'd still be in the boat of "get II, never get III"

MK 1 as I previously state would stay as two shot (mostly to keep cap damage sane unless we double that single-shot damage) but adjust the base damage just tiny lower. While everything else about shot per MK will be largely identical to changing the base cost.

So I am not sure why you would prefer the former because you still get same insane economy burn rate. While the per shot plan would actually give you a reason to look at mk 4 because of two reasons. Under the per-shot plan you get less of a drain on economy and cap damage is more worthwhile for your knowledge. For example, MK 5 would survive for 8 second as opposite to 2 second giving your shipyard/MSD more time to crank out other marks and still deal damage. Of course they will always burn through your reserve M+C however the cost adjust plan will not change the economy drainage rate. It just merely make MK 3-5 better that all.

Offline Chthon

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2013, 07:48:16 am »
Just did something neat with Railpods today, though admittedly without realizing what I was about to do.  I used them to convert regen golem HP into damage at a high return rate >:D  However boy do MKVs eat through the regen golem's HP quickly.

Still it would be interesting to see the rate of return for them when used with a regen golem.  I'm not sure what the HP lost by the golem is based on.  Is it based on cost of the unit?  Is it based on max HP of the unit?  I do not know.  It could be cheaper to utilize them via regen golem and then simply repair the golem for all I know.  It also might throw the numbers off quite a bit for how worthwhile each mark is.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2013, 08:41:56 am »
HP lost on the golem is equal to the HP of the revived unit (last I checked).

The MC cost of the golem is also MUCH higher than every other unit.  So you will get a good burst that lasts longer, but it will be more expensive to recover.

Offline Chthon

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Re: Higher Mark Railpods - Why upgrade?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2013, 11:03:53 am »
MC cost of the golem is partially offset by the fact that it regens in 2 hours time.  Every 15 mins it takes you to repair it, it heals 1/8 it's health on it's own so that cost is deducted.  Plus it's not the MC cost of the golem, but the ratio between MC and HP that we would be looking at then.

Finally, it's possible to cheese the golem to high health by letting it fire on a wormhole guardpost in a relatively safe sector.  ;)