Author Topic: Helper mode feedback  (Read 2266 times)

Offline Hearteater

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Helper mode feedback
« on: January 30, 2012, 11:02:57 am »
So I introduced a friend to AI Wars in large part thanks to Helper mode.  It was a rousing success and another person has seen the light.  So I wanted to share my experience.

Once we were in the game itself, the helper role worked perfectly.  I was in the role of helper and it felt no different to me than playing normally.  I let him focus on offensively taking systems while I stopped waves and otherwise just answered questions and provided suggestions.  So a very good experience.

I did have a few issues, mainly with getting the game started.  I'll pose them as a questions and a suggestion:

Can I host a game, but still be the helper?  His computer is dying and so we'd prefer to have me host but we weren't able to get that to work with me as a helper.  I suppose it may not matter too much who's helper but it feels correct to do it this way.  I couldn't seem to get this to work with me hosting but being helper.

I'd really like to be able to start a new game using the Helper role.  I feel game setup is pretty important and can be pretty overwhelming to a new player so if I'm taking someone through the game I'd like to be able to start at the beginning.  Especially with him needing to host, he had to create the game, pause it, go into manage players to add a player and set the role.  Just a bunch of stuff I'd rather do instead.

Other than those two issues, amazing job.  Thank you very much guys!

Edit: One request from my friend: He would really like it if he could see what I have selected.  Just the selection circles on units (the selection list for my units isn't needed).  But it would help make it clear who was controlling what units when we both are managing a fight.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 11:49:23 am by Hearteater »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 11:47:58 am »
I do plan to add a role-select on the lobby and to let you select helper for anyone (including Player 1 - the host) but you won't be able to start a game without at least 1 "normal"-role human player. 

The lobby stuff was just a significant bit of extra work due to the limited space and semi-involved logic involved in adding those rules that I didn't have to implement just to make it accessible via manage-players.  Also, the actual work involved in the decoupling of "which player is connected via this process" and "which player's interface is this process showing" touched a lot of code and I wanted it to be more of an "opt-in" feature for a little while to make sure it wasn't horribly horribly breaking something.  From the sound of it, it's pretty clean, and I'm very grateful for your testing of it :) 

And then I went and did something like break the tutorials (in 5.021, fixed in 5.022) and make all tractors paralyzing (in 5.022, fixed in 5.023 which should be out today), but I guess it balances out ;)
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 11:51:44 am »
I very much appreciate the feature, and it wasn't even one I know I wanted.  I had a blast last night, and our game is scheduled to continue Tuesday.  He just finished the tutorial last night (he had already gotten to the unguided portion before we played) and is apparently quite sleep deprived today :) .

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 12:56:04 pm »
I do plan to add a role-select on the lobby and to let you select helper for anyone (including Player 1 - the host) but you won't be able to start a game without at least 1 "normal"-role human player. 

The lobby stuff was just a significant bit of extra work due to the limited space and semi-involved logic involved in adding those rules that I didn't have to implement just to make it accessible via manage-players.  Also, the actual work involved in the decoupling of "which player is connected via this process" and "which player's interface is this process showing" touched a lot of code and I wanted it to be more of an "opt-in" feature for a little while to make sure it wasn't horribly horribly breaking something.  From the sound of it, it's pretty clean, and I'm very grateful for your testing of it :) 

And then I went and did something like break the tutorials (in 5.021, fixed in 5.022) and make all tractors paralyzing (in 5.022, fixed in 5.023 which should be out today), but I guess it balances out ;)

Don't you love it when your massive sweeping changes are near bug-free, but what should have been a limited-scope patch/quick-fix breaks large chunks of the behavior?

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 01:53:58 pm »
I do plan to add a role-select on the lobby and to let you select helper for anyone (including Player 1 - the host) but you won't be able to start a game without at least 1 "normal"-role human player. 

The lobby stuff was just a significant bit of extra work due to the limited space and semi-involved logic involved in adding those rules that I didn't have to implement just to make it accessible via manage-players.  Also, the actual work involved in the decoupling of "which player is connected via this process" and "which player's interface is this process showing" touched a lot of code and I wanted it to be more of an "opt-in" feature for a little while to make sure it wasn't horribly horribly breaking something.  From the sound of it, it's pretty clean, and I'm very grateful for your testing of it :) 

And then I went and did something like break the tutorials (in 5.021, fixed in 5.022) and make all tractors paralyzing (in 5.022, fixed in 5.023 which should be out today), but I guess it balances out ;)

Don't you love it when your massive sweeping changes are near bug-free, but what should have been a limited-scope patch/quick-fix breaks large chunks of the behavior?

Working in IT (databases specifically) you'd be amazed at what happens when you change VARCHAR(40) to VARCHAR(50).  It SHOULD be a minor thing...  ;D

Been there, done that Keith.  From a company with 3 month turnarounds on patches, it'd be a concern.  From you guys?  I think we can all accept a 'whoops' from you, even regularly, since you both are very on the ball when it comes to player feedback.  Thanks.   :D
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 02:06:33 pm »
Working in IT (databases specifically) you'd be amazed at what happens when you change VARCHAR(40) to VARCHAR(50).  It SHOULD be a minor thing...  ;D
Haha, you too?  Chris and I both have extensive background in enterprise web/database apps.

And yea, column type or length changes... ouch.  At my old job we typically did ok, but there were some twilight-zone moments.  More with the web layer than the db layer, but there was this odd bug in MSSQL where changing the order of columns being pulled into a view (or was it the columns of the tables it was pulling from, I forget) would cause the view to continue to be used as if the order were the same, with no error or warning or whatever unless the code operating upon it ran into logic errors processing the different-data-than-expected.  Lots of fun with that one.

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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 02:11:13 pm »
Working in IT (databases specifically) you'd be amazed at what happens when you change VARCHAR(40) to VARCHAR(50).  It SHOULD be a minor thing...  ;D
Haha, you too?  Chris and I both have extensive background in enterprise web/database apps.

And yea, column type or length changes... ouch.  At my old job we typically did ok, but there were some twilight-zone moments.  More with the web layer than the db layer, but there was this odd bug in MSSQL where changing the order of columns being pulled into a view (or was it the columns of the tables it was pulling from, I forget) would cause the view to continue to be used as if the order were the same, with no error or warning or whatever unless the code operating upon it ran into logic errors processing the different-data-than-expected.  Lots of fun with that one.

sp_refereshview.  The metadata doesn't update when the source tables are changed.  Old mechanic, it's for optimization purposes.  That'd happen to be the system I'm a specialist in.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 04:40:41 pm »
Going to be continuing this game tonight.  Just to be absolutely certain, there isn't any way for the host to be helper, correct?  It doesn't appear to work, but I figure maybe I'm just doing something wrong.  I didn't want to fiddle with it too much last time because we had limited time.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 10:02:26 am »
Going to be continuing this game tonight.  Just to be absolutely certain, there isn't any way for the host to be helper, correct?  It doesn't appear to work, but I figure maybe I'm just doing something wrong.  I didn't want to fiddle with it too much last time because we had limited time.
Not unless there's some way for the host to not be player 1, which I don't think is possible.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 10:12:37 am »
Heh, I managed to find a way to make Helper host :)  And I was player 2.

So, we had already played previously with him hosting.  So I was already established as Player 2 in Helper role, with him as Player 1 in Normal role.  I loaded the save game and it slotted me into Player 2 as Helper automatically.  Then he joined as was Player 1.  Perfect.  Obviously it would be nice to be able to do that from the lobby at game setup, but this works for now.

Also, I need to confirm but I may be getting duplicate audio as a Helper (effects only, not music).  I need to check if he is getting the same thing.  Otherwise another successful night.  Next up he gets to tackle an AI Eye :) .

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 10:26:28 am »
Also, I need to confirm but I may be getting duplicate audio as a Helper (effects only, not music).
You mean the same sound playing twice?  It might conceivably play a sound you shouldn't hear (in theory, I'm guessing if you're playing helper you want to hear what the other player hears), but all the sound playing calls are either "do I call this or not", not "do I call this not, once, or twice?".

Quote
Otherwise another successful night.  Next up he gets to tackle an AI Eye :) .
Great to hear it's working well :)
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 11:26:27 am »
Like when I click to order a ship to move, I hear the feedback sound, then a second later, I hear it again.  We were using Steam to voice communicate at the time, but we were both on headphones.  So not only would my headphones have needed to pick up the move-unit feedback sound and sent it to him, his would have picked it up and sent it back.  Haven't mantis'd it yet because I want to get a definitive result and my friend was way to eager to continue the game for me to mess around testing the audio.

Offline pallenda

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 11:03:01 am »
Hearteater, these tutor sessions would be great to have on http://www.twitch.tv/ :)

Having a computer that can handle massive battle and stream to twitch in 720p might be tough. But it would be interesting to see.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 11:56:08 am »
I've never actually checked to see what streaming would require.  What software do people use to stream generally?  My computer should be able to handle streaming.

Offline pallenda

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Re: Helper mode feedback
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 01:44:31 pm »
Teamliquid.net has tons of stuff on streaming Starcraft, I onæy tried it briefly myself with the program justin.tv/twitch.tv have. I hear many people use xsplit + flashmedia encoder.


Xsplit video guide for with justintv
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195391

Stream Quality Guide.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220584

The more complicated option is to use Adobe's Flash Media Live Encoder with screen capture software such as VHScrCap or SCFH:
http://www.quantic-destiny.com/newbies-guide-to-streaming/

Streaming problem? Read this! (More about if testing bandwidth ect)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226074


There sure is tons of info and people on this main english Starcraft community. I'm sure some of them would love AIW if they tried.