Author Topic: Hacking Response - How does it work?  (Read 7147 times)

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Hacking Response - How does it work?
« on: January 25, 2014, 05:13:36 pm »
I thought I had a handle on this, but in the last two games I've played I've been wiped out and nearly wiped out (respectively) by hacking responses that were anticipated to be "very low," so something must be going on that I don't understand. Early game, I've got perhaps 92 AIP and maybe 90 HaP, haven't hacked anything yet. I go to a world with an ARS and try to hack it. The response is an endless stream of Mk 3 zombies (it's a Mk1 world), some "hacking response" waves, and a tachyon burst that reveals my hacker and allows them to destroy it.

In the end, I'm up 600 threat on the board and still haven't hacked the ARS, despite the fact that (to my thinking) I was reasonably careful and was hacking in the positive. So my question is this: is this a bug, or is there something serious I'm not understanding about the hacking mechanic? Right now I'm afraid to hack anything, having had this happen a few times now.

Edit: Corrected misremembered AIP value.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 09:41:33 pm by Vinraith »

Offline Orelius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 07:17:01 pm »
When hacking, you're probably going to have to take more precautions than just parking your fleet on the hacking device.  You could try bringing in a mobile builder to stick a forcefield and some turrets to defend your hacking device.

It doesn't make much sense that you got mark III zombies on your first hack.  Are you sure you haven't hacked anything before?  HaP Is based on the total amount of AIP you've taken without reductions, so it doesn't make sense that you have 150 AIP and only 90 HaP.

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 09:42:57 pm »
When hacking, you're probably going to have to take more precautions than just parking your fleet on the hacking device.  You could try bringing in a mobile builder to stick a forcefield and some turrets to defend your hacking device.

It doesn't make much sense that you got mark III zombies on your first hack.  Are you sure you haven't hacked anything before?  HaP Is based on the total amount of AIP you've taken without reductions, so it doesn't make sense that you have 150 AIP and only 90 HaP.

I was remembering the AIP wrong, I just loaded up the file and it was 90 HaP and 90 AIP. I agree that the stream of mk 3 zombies doesn't appear to make any sense. I'm on the verge of reporting it to Mantis unless someone can explain why the heck that would be happening.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 04:32:31 am »
When hacking, you're probably going to have to take more precautions than just parking your fleet on the hacking device.  You could try bringing in a mobile builder to stick a forcefield and some turrets to defend your hacking device.

It doesn't make much sense that you got mark III zombies on your first hack.  Are you sure you haven't hacked anything before?  HaP Is based on the total amount of AIP you've taken without reductions, so it doesn't make sense that you have 150 AIP and only 90 HaP.
I was remembering the AIP wrong, I just loaded up the file and it was 90 HaP and 90 AIP. I agree that the stream of mk 3 zombies doesn't appear to make any sense. I'm on the verge of reporting it to Mantis unless someone can explain why the heck that would be happening.
The level of the ship produced by the hack depends on the response, not the level of the world being hacked.  If you turn on advanced logging, you'll see a file named "LogicLog_AIMechanic_CounterHacking.txt" appear in your RuntimeData folder.  This file contains the math breakdown of how the AI is responding to your hack, including how many ships of which types, and how it pays for them.   It'll look something like this:
Code: [Select]

1/26/2014 4:21:32 AM (7.009) 3:54:40 Counter-Saboteur Spawn on Dorkillki (playerNumber:8)
spawnStrength = max(1,(AIDifficulty * Handicap)) * 2.5 = 22.5
BaseHackingAntagonism = AIProgressionLevelEffective = 10
HackingProgressEarned = AIProgressionLevelTotal = 30
ShipDesignHackingCost = (for each hack, 50 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
KnowledgeHackingCost = (for each 3000 knowledge hacked, 29.3 * 1.5^n, where n is the amount of knowledge hacked previously divided by 3000 and rounded down) = 0.06
SuperterminalHackingCost = (for each 20 AIP hacked, 3000 * 1.5^n, where n is the AIP hacked previously divided by 20 and rounded down) = 0
FabricatorHackingCost = (for each hack, 20 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
AdvancedConstructorHackingCost = (for each hack, 100 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
DesignCorruptionCost = (for each hack, 30 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
DesignDownloadingCost = (for each hack, 50 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
UnitSabotagingCost = (for each hack, 2 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
SensorHackCost = (for each hack, 10 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
HackingProgress = 29.94
BaseHackingAntagonism = AIProgressionLevelEffective - HackingProgress = -19.94
BaseHackingAntagonism = Max(10,BaseHackingAntagonism) = 10
multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = max(1,(totalHackingAntagonism-80000)/160000) = 1
spawnStrength *= multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = 22.5
tackleOrBladeCheeseDetected = false
engineDamageCheeseDetected = false
maximumNumberOfWildRolls = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/50) = 1
wild-roll:PickNeighboringAIPlanet, spawnStrength = 22.5
spawnedType:BomberIII quantity:1 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:SpireBladeSpawnerIII quantity:1 (strength-each:57.6)

Over a 5 minute hack, spawning 500 zombies wouldn't be unusual.  Usually, if you have you fleet defending the Hacker, you'll clean up the zombies in groups of 10 every 10 seconds, but if you do an unattended hack, you can expect all 500 zombies to survive to wander AI space.  All in all, it doesn't sound like a bug yet, just that you are not familiar with the hacking response yet.


Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2014, 11:36:20 am »
Over a 5 minute hack, spawning 500 zombies wouldn't be unusual.  Usually, if you have you fleet defending the Hacker, you'll clean up the zombies in groups of 10 every 10 seconds, but if you do an unattended hack, you can expect all 500 zombies to survive to wander AI space.  All in all, it doesn't sound like a bug yet, just that you are not familiar with the hacking response yet.

Thanks Toranth. It's not at all hard to believe that this is my ignorance at work, not a bug, which is why it's helpful to get a detailed explanations like this. That said I'm still not sure why, with 90 HaP and 90 AIP, hacking an ARS is producing Mk3 zombies. If I'm understanding the calculation above, isn't that wrong?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 11:45:42 am by Vinraith »

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2014, 12:57:36 pm »
When in doubt, turn on advanced logging and show someone the log. There might be a math problem sitting around

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2014, 01:25:44 pm »
When in doubt, turn on advanced logging and show someone the log. There might be a math problem sitting around

Quite right. Here we are:

Quote
1/26/2014 1:22:59 PM (7.009) 1:02:10   Counter-Saboteur Spawn on Avior (playerNumber:9)
spawnStrength = max(1,(AIDifficulty * Handicap)) * 2.5 = 17.5
BaseHackingAntagonism = AIProgressionLevelEffective = 93
HackingProgressEarned = AIProgressionLevelTotal = 93
ShipDesignHackingCost = (for each hack, 50 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
KnowledgeHackingCost = (for each 3000 knowledge hacked, 29.3 * 1.5^n, where n is the amount of knowledge hacked previously divided by 3000 and rounded down) = 0
SuperterminalHackingCost = (for each 20 AIP hacked, 3000 * 1.5^n, where n is the AIP hacked previously divided by 20 and rounded down) = 0
FabricatorHackingCost = (for each hack, 20 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
AdvancedConstructorHackingCost = (for each hack, 100 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
DesignCorruptionCost = (for each hack, 30 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
DesignDownloadingCost = (for each hack, 50 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
UnitSabotagingCost = (for each hack, 2 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
SensorHackCost = (for each hack, 10 * 1.5^n, where n is the number of previous hacks) = 0
HackingProgress = 93
BaseHackingAntagonism = AIProgressionLevelEffective - HackingProgress = 0
BaseHackingAntagonism = Max(10,BaseHackingAntagonism) = 10
multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = max(1,(totalHackingAntagonism-80000)/160000) = 1
spawnStrength *= multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = 17.5
tackleOrBladeCheeseDetected = false
engineDamageCheeseDetected = false
maximumNumberOfWildRolls = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/50) = 1
wild-roll:SwitchBackToNormalSpawn, spawnStrength = 17.5
spawnedType:FighterIII quantity:2 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:Cruiser quantity:2 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:ShieldBearerIII quantity:1 (strength-each:8)
spawnedType:AcidSprayerIII quantity:1 (strength-each:2)

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2014, 02:29:38 pm »
When in doubt, turn on advanced logging and show someone the log. There might be a math problem sitting around
Quite right. Here we are:
<snip>
Looks OK to me.  You are seeing 6 ships spawned.  That seems about right for an early spawn.  Why it chooses Mk IIIs over more Mk Is or fewer Mk IV/Vs, I don't know.  Maybe Keith will shed some light on that subject.  Later on, as the hacking response goes up, it will upgrade to Mk IV and Mk V ships.

It sounds from your description like you are attempting to send the Hacker into the AI system all by itself, without any support.  While possible, this is difficult (as you've discovered) and not recommended. 
My usual strategy is to use my fleet to completely neuter the system - I destroy all guardposts, guardians, and all fleetships.  Early on, the Special Forces and Threatfleet aren't a problem, but at 90 AIP you may want to try to whittle those down as well.  I also wait until both AIs have sent waves recently, so there is unlikely to be another one during the hack.
Then I rebuild my fleet completely, and send it along with the Hacker to the target system.  Once there, I move towards the outside edge of the system, away from wormholes and the AI Command Station, before using the Hacker.
Then, it's just a matter of defending the Hacker foldout until time is up.  I like to put a portion (1/4 to 1/2) of my fleet on FRD, so it will proactively go out and destroy the spawned ships before they can gang up on my defenders.  I also use Riot starships to shield and defend the Hacker - The shields of the Riots can be very useful should a Tachyon Burst occur.
If I am attempting to hack something adjacent to one of my planets, I do as Orelius suggested, and use a Mobile Builder to build some turrets and shields, too.

An ARS hack takes 10 minutes, so you'll face about 60 spawns of ships.  Most will be roughly the same strength, but in the log you may have noticed the "wild-roll" part.  "Wild-rolls" are random changes to the spawn.  This can be changing the ship type, relocating to an adjacent system, or greatly increasing the strength of the spawn.  At the start, you only have one roll per spawn, but as the hacking response goes up, the AI will get more rolls.

Early on, when you have not unlocked many Mk II or Mk III ships, hacking can be difficult.  If you try and fail (and don't die) consider capturing a different ARS or two, or unlocking some higher mark ships, before trying again.  Alternately, try hacking something that finishes faster - a Fabricator, for example.  Just remember that hacking response scales based on the difference between the current AIP and the current HaP, so using HaP will make later hacks harder.  If this is a hack you just MUST have now, try capturing an adjacent system and building a beachhead on the target world first.


Again, however, let me say one more time - unattended hacking can be very dangerous.  It is not recommended.

Here's the release notes, introducing the new hacking (in 7.002, 7.006, and 7.008).
Here's an older thread discussing the Hacking mechanics and some strategies people employ.  Unfortunately, the Wiki has not yet been updated with the new Hacking mechanics yet.


Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2014, 06:32:18 pm »
And thanks again, I appreciate the detailed response and the extremely helpful links. I also appreciate the strategy tips, being wholly new to the mechanic I didn't realize quite what an operation it is to support this properly. Duly noted, no more unattended hacking!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2014, 09:06:02 pm »
OK, stupid hacking question that I didn't see answered in your links: How does hacking a system with multiple fabs work?

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2014, 01:35:43 am »
OK, stupid hacking question that I didn't see answered in your links: How does hacking a system with multiple fabs work?
A single hack will get you all of the fabs in a system, HOWEVER you pay the price in HaP as if you had performed multiple hacks in sequence.  For example, if your first hack is a system with three Fabricators, at the end of 5 minutes you'll get all three ship types, but it will cost you 20 + 30 + 45 HaP.

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2014, 10:11:41 pm »
OK, stupid hacking question that I didn't see answered in your links: How does hacking a system with multiple fabs work?
A single hack will get you all of the fabs in a system, HOWEVER you pay the price in HaP as if you had performed multiple hacks in sequence.  For example, if your first hack is a system with three Fabricators, at the end of 5 minutes you'll get all three ship types, but it will cost you 20 + 30 + 45 HaP.

Yikes, glad I asked, that's a potentially lethal thing to not know!

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 10:07:21 am »
Yikes, glad I asked, that's a potentially lethal thing to not know!

Not really.  You face a response equal to your current HaP, the costs come at the end.  If you ship design hack an Everything AI for like 30 ships, the response is light, you end up with like -10,000 HaP and will never be able to hack again.  But the "this hack" isn't that deadly.

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 11:27:44 am »
Yikes, glad I asked, that's a potentially lethal thing to not know!

Not really.  You face a response equal to your current HaP, the costs come at the end.  If you ship design hack an Everything AI for like 30 ships, the response is light, you end up with like -10,000 HaP and will never be able to hack again.  But the "this hack" isn't that deadly.

Ah, also very useful to know, I had thought it was the other way around. Thanks!

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Hacking Response - How does it work?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2014, 01:59:39 am »
I also appreciate the strategy tips
This is how I like to hack.
I took this screenshot after destroying ~800 Fighters and a couple of hundreds of Missile Frigates and Bombers. Or something like that.

Anyway. 2 Force fields. Turrets. Tractors to stop the AI ships from destroying the turrets. Engineers and Rebuilders under the force fields to rebuild the Turrets.

Missile and Sniper turrets destroy bombers and guardians (polycrystal and medium), needler turrets destroy missile frigates (artillery) and flak turrets destroy fighters (light). All major hull types should be countered.

(Direct link to the screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/3Urm1vV.png)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 02:02:35 am by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!