Author Topic: Hacking Prices  (Read 3947 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Hacking Prices
« on: December 22, 2013, 09:50:39 pm »
This discussion has been popping up all around, so I'm unifying it.

The current starting hack prices:

1 k-raid: 30
Research redirection: 50
Design Download: 50
Design Corruption: 30
Fabricator: 20
Sabotage: 2
Sensor: 10

Knowledge raids are about right. I can pull off four and have a decent budget left over, but after four they become prohibitively expensive.

Research redirection: awfully overpriced. I think the base cost should come down to 20. You aren't getting any additional ships, just better fits into your fleet.

Design Download: 50 seems right. The AI will often have a ship or two that would go really well with whatever you have.

Design Corruption: I never use this. I think a price of 10 would be about right.

Fabricators: 20 is quite cheap for a mkV cap. I would bump it up to 30 or 40, probably 30 because of limited selection.

Sabotage: way too cheap. It can resolve really nasty situations for a small HaP cost, but I don't think that's the problem. The issue is when it kills structures which would give AIP, especially against an AI which seeds a bunch of said structures and additional data centers. I think that the base cost of 2x1.5^hacknumber is fine, but should have an additional cost of 1HaP for every AIP you avoid.

I do like the 1.5 exponential scaling.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 10:30:45 pm »
I raised an eyeridge at the Sabotage cost, but Keith made some argument for it.  I'll try and find it.
Edit:

2 may be too low, I dunno.  But when I did the math, that plus the 1.5x-each-time rule means that sabotaging a total of 8 units costs about 100 HaP.  9 brings the total up to 150, 10 brings the total up to over 220, and it just gets more absurd from there.

So the idea was to basically give the player up to 8 (maybe 9) "get out of jail free" cards for dealing with particularly nasty RNG jerk-moves.  Of course, even playing just those 8 has a substantial opportunity cost, so if you can limit yourself to, say, 5 (with a total cost of about 27) you have a lot more available for other things.

So now when you're facing a really brutal AI HW you may be able to do one or more of the below.
- If the ARS non-default types include one that can help you break the knot, hack for that.
- If the AI has a ship type that would help you break the knot, you can copy that.
- If there's a fab out there with a type that would help you break the knot, but you really don't fancy your chances of take-and-hold for it (or just don't want to spend the AIP), you can hack it.
- If the AI has a ship type that's really really messing up your chances, you can disable that (though this is best done before its got a ton of them on the homeworld and/or in the SF, naturally).
- If there's just some really annoying superfort/core-ff/etc combo, you can push the "make it die" button for those.
- If you really need to get in a solid cloaked strike on a target to have any chance of taking it down, you can sensor hack.

Chances are the really nasty situations will preclude some/most of those, but I think the situations where NONE of them work are getting more and more rare as we expand the toolbox.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:32:27 pm by Draco18s »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 10:36:51 pm »
But you would still have the "get out of jail free cards." this would just mean you can't use them to get out of AIP without a bit of additional cost. The extra HaP for avoided AIP would not be scaled by whatever exponent, to be clear.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 12:44:51 am »
Research redirection: awfully overpriced. I think the base cost should come down to 20. You aren't getting any additional ships, just better fits into your fleet.
I agree that ARS hacking is overpriced right now.  At 20 HaP base, you're looking at 100 Hap to hack 3 ARSs, and 250 for all 5.


Design Corruption: I never use this. I think a price of 10 would be about right.
I rarely use Design Corruption, but 10 HaP seems a little too cheap.  At 10 HaP base, 4 corruptions is 80 HaP, 5 is 130.  Against many AI types, 5 corruptions will reduce the AI to triangle ships until the endgame.  20 HaP may be better, but even leaving this at 30 doesn't bother me.  In my mind, it's a way for the player to say "I HATE AI ZBombards, so I'm going to make sure it doesn't get any ever again!", as opposed to something done casually.  I think the only reason to consider dropping the HaP cost of corruptions is because the AIs are independent.


Fabricators: 20 is quite cheap for a mkV cap. I would bump it up to 30 or 40, probably 30 because of limited selection.
Fabs are limited selection, and they are take-and-hold structures, unlike ARSs or Design Downloads.  And on top of that, even in 100 star games you frequently get systems with multiple fabricators.  When you consider that you cannot hack only a single fab out of a multi-fab system, your "free 1" goes away.  I think 20 HaP is still right for this.


Sabotage: way too cheap. It can resolve really nasty situations for a small HaP cost, but I don't think that's the problem. The issue is when it kills structures which would give AIP, especially against an AI which seeds a bunch of said structures and additional data centers. I think that the base cost of 2x1.5^hacknumber is fine, but should have an additional cost of 1HaP for every AIP you avoid.
Adding the AIP cost to the HaP cost is an interesting idea, although it could make it hard to predict your final cost.  My actual objection to this, though, is that it means sabotaging a distribution node would be more costly than sabotaging a Mk III Fortress or a Mk V Forcefield.  And that's just not right.
That said, 2 HaP seems cheap to me, too, but Keith's argument that Draco18s found is fairly persuasive.  If 8 is how many he thinks we should get for 100 HaP.  If the base cost was raised to 5 HaP, that 6 sabotage hacks would cost a total of roughly 100 HaP.


Sensor Hacks are the big one I don't really understand.  It takes 30 seconds to execute, only lasts for 35 seconds, doesn't hide shooting units, and costs 10 HaP base.  2:30 minutes of cloaking costs 130 HaP - about 4 k-raids, 2 ARS hacks, 4 fabs, or 2 design downloads.  Cloaker Starships and Tachyon Warheads are superior in almost every way, so I simply do not see why a sensor hack would be useful.
My complaints are:  It costs a lot of HaP for a temporary result, and it takes too long to start up, in addition to the high cost. 
However, I've read several posts by other players that like the sensor hack a lot.  This may be a playstyle arugument, then - not useful to me, but powerful for other players.


Finally, Advanced Production Facility hacking.  Currently, these cost 100 HaP base.  However, I almost think this should be increased to 150 HaP base.  It's fairly easy to find one of the two (a Fac IV or ASC) that is somewhere that can be captured and defended, especially considering the B CSGs.  However, finding one of each in good spots is much more difficult.  But for a mere 100 HaP, I don't need to worry about it.  And the ability to produce all Mk IV units is very powerful...  Of course, right now the Fac IV is much more powerful than the ASC.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 03:23:33 am »
Quote
Fabs are limited selection, and they are take-and-hold structures
But when you hack them, you don't need to hold them. You just get the mkV ship cap at all your constructors, forever. The fabricator itself becomes irrelevant.

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When you consider that you cannot hack only a single fab out of a multi-fab system, your "free 1" goes away.
Yes, it would be inefficient to hack in a system where there was only a single desirable fabricator. But it's pretty rare that such a system would exist and you wouldn't just take it.

Quote
Finally, Advanced Production Facility hacking.  Currently, these cost 100 HaP base.  However, I almost think this should be increased to 150 HaP base.
Oh, yeah, those hacks. I don't agree with upping the price on those. You MUST take one, to knock out core shield B. And once you have one, the effectiveness of the other one is low. So you're either hacking the less effective advanced constructor, or spending 100 HaP on insurance. If anything, I think the price should go down a bit, maybe to 80.
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Offline Bognor

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 05:21:18 am »
Quote
When you consider that you cannot hack only a single fab out of a multi-fab system, your "free 1" goes away.
Yes, it would be inefficient to hack in a system where there was only a single desirable fabricator. But it's pretty rare that such a system would exist and you wouldn't just take it.
If there's a multi-fab system and you only want one of them, can't you just destroy the fab(s) you don't want, then hack the single one you do?
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Offline Histidine

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 06:51:43 am »
I think one fab hack gets you all the fabs in the system for the price of one.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 08:03:03 am »
I think one fab hack gets you all the fabs in the system for the price of one.

No it doesn't.  It charges you for each and every one.  You just don't have to deal with the response until next time.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 01:25:17 pm »
Quote
When you consider that you cannot hack only a single fab out of a multi-fab system, your "free 1" goes away.
Yes, it would be inefficient to hack in a system where there was only a single desirable fabricator. But it's pretty rare that such a system would exist and you wouldn't just take it.
If there's a multi-fab system and you only want one of them, can't you just destroy the fab(s) you don't want, then hack the single one you do?
Nope.  You cannot attack Fabricators.  I assume this is to prevent the misclick of doom from ruining several hours of play.

Quote
Fabs are limited selection, and they are take-and-hold structures
But when you hack them, you don't need to hold them. You just get the mkV ship cap at all your constructors, forever. The fabricator itself becomes irrelevant.
When you capture a Fab it becomes a take-and-hold structure, where ARS and Downloads are one-and-done.  The point of hacking the Fabricator is to make it so you don't need to hold it - you get no other benefit.  That's a benefit the ARS and Download already have.

Quote
When you consider that you cannot hack only a single fab out of a multi-fab system, your "free 1" goes away.
Yes, it would be inefficient to hack in a system where there was only a single desirable fabricator. But it's pretty rare that such a system would exist and you wouldn't just take it.
It happens all the time in my games.  Systems next to core worlds, systems with nothing else desirable nearby, systems that are insanely well defended (Fortress Baron Rude Gesture, I'm looking at you), systems where that one fab is the only desirable thing in the entire system.  In my current game, 80 stars, there are 4 systems with 2 Fabs and 1 with 3 Fabs.  That's a lot of redundancy.

Quote
Finally, Advanced Production Facility hacking.  Currently, these cost 100 HaP base.  However, I almost think this should be increased to 150 HaP base.
Oh, yeah, those hacks. I don't agree with upping the price on those. You MUST take one, to knock out core shield B. And once you have one, the effectiveness of the other one is low. So you're either hacking the less effective advanced constructor, or spending 100 HaP on insurance. If anything, I think the price should go down a bit, maybe to 80.
Yes, you need to capture one B CSG, but that's also a one-and-done thing.  Capture, destroy the CSG, and abandon.  You don't need a defensible system for that, while you do if you plan to keep an ASC or Fac IV alive.  In my current game, both Fac IVs in the galaxy are adjacent to two Core worlds.  I'd prefer to avoid taking those systems if I don't need to, because I'd prefer to avoid spending the K to unlock Warp Jammer stations and the additional defenses needed to protect that system from CPAs and the like.
It's not something I feel strongly about, but I hack one of the two with enough frequency, without even really considering the cost, that perhaps it should be higher.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 02:38:12 pm »
Yes, you need to capture one B CSG, but that's also a one-and-done thing.  Capture, destroy the CSG, and abandon.  You don't need a defensible system for that, while you do if you plan to keep an ASC or Fac IV alive.  In my current game, both Fac IVs in the galaxy are adjacent to two Core worlds.  I'd prefer to avoid taking those systems if I don't need to, because I'd prefer to avoid spending the K to unlock Warp Jammer stations and the additional defenses needed to protect that system from CPAs and the like.
It's not something I feel strongly about, but I hack one of the two with enough frequency, without even really considering the cost, that perhaps it should be higher.

In my current game I hacked the Mk4 factory because neither one were in particularly valuable/strategic locations, so I hacked one and then blew up the other for the CSG.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 08:22:23 pm »
Quote
The point of hacking the Fabricator is to make it so you don't need to hold it - you get no other benefit.
You don't need to take the hacked fabricator at all. Once the hack is complete, you get the ships.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 10:53:51 pm »
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The point of hacking the Fabricator is to make it so you don't need to hold it - you get no other benefit.
You don't need to take the hacked fabricator at all. Once the hack is complete, you get the ships.

I love how you guys are talking past each other. <3

The benefit of hacking a fabricator is not needing to hold it.  That's it.

Offline Bognor

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 11:52:08 pm »
Quote
The point of hacking the Fabricator is to make it so you don't need to hold it - you get no other benefit.
You don't need to take the hacked fabricator at all. Once the hack is complete, you get the ships.

I love how you guys are talking past each other. <3

The benefit of hacking a fabricator is not needing to hold it.  That's it.
The benefit of hacking a fabricator is getting mark V ships  :P

But unless I'm misunderstanding something, hacking a fab has two benefits over the conventional alternative of taking and holding the fab:
  • You don't need to take it - saving the AIP cost of capturing the system (assuming you don't want it for some other reason)
  • You don't need to hold it - its production capacity is yours forever, and you need not commit defenses to protecting it
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Offline Bob of Mage

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 05:48:55 pm »
  • You don't need to take it - saving the AIP cost of capturing the system (assuming you don't want it for some other reason)

But wouldn't the cost of hacking be 20 the first time, which equals the AiP of taking a system? In other words taking the system is cheaper if you hack often.

Offline tadrinth

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Re: Hacking Prices
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2014, 07:03:09 pm »
Research redirection feels really expensive relative to Design Download for what you get.  I think I've actually spent more on redirection in my current game, mostly because the AI doesn't have many ship types I'm super excited about, while the ARSes have had some really tasty options.  It feels too expensive but it keeps being worth it, so maybe the price is fine. 

Design corruption is really nice vs certain annoying ships like Etherjets and Parasites. 

Fabricator hacking is amazing; not having to cap the system AND not having to hold it means I'd greatly prefer to hack fabricators.  Getting a new ship type means you have to spend knowledge for marks II and III, fabs let you go directly to Mark V at no K cost.  In some cases (munitions boosters, flagships) you really only want the highest mark anyway.  Particularly useful if playing without Core Turret controllers, since distributed defense is harder and hacks reduce the need. 

Advanced Factory/Starship hacking is appropriately really expensive; I think the starship constructor might be overpriced though.  Also, I keep having advanced factories in really good spots and starship constructors in awful spots, which pushes me toward capping the former and hacking the latter. 

Sabotage hacking is really amazing applied judiciously.  Hacking Core Eyes for anything <10 HaP feels like solid gold if you can pull it off.  I've definitely seen systems where I've said "how the heck do I..." and then smacked my forehead and said "Oh I can just sabotage hack X".  I think the only thing I've sabotaged hacked is Eyes, actually.  Most problems are solvable with a full fleet.  The no-AIP on death feature could be amazing for certain opponents, but the costs would add up really fast.

Sensor hacking seems like it would be useful mostly on the AI homeworlds where cloaking is otherwise impossible due to the home command's global tachyon.  Then again, good luck starting the hack vs a Wrath lance with that 35s startup. 

I never remember to knowledge hack, but I could certainly see doing this if I wound up at the AI homeworlds with excess HaP and got stuck. 

Only tangentially related, but some minor hacking usability notes: I wind up having to put my Hacker into a control group because you can't select just the hacker from the right side if there are any science vessels in the system.  Maybe give it a new far-zoom icon and make it show up separately?  Also, any plans to add art for the different hacking modules?  Currently they all look squished together because their icon is so large. 

I'd still like design backups to self-destruct after you hack them. 

Overall, loving the new hacking. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 07:10:56 pm by tadrinth »