Guardians a little overzealous about counterattacking

[NickAragua]

So, I've noticed this behavior occurring quite frequently, to the point where it makes assaulting AI worlds almost trivial:

1) Send some raid starships or another small raiding group to attack a guard post with a guardian.
2) The guardian and its buddies almost immediately run for the nearest wormhole to your systems, leaving the guard post at the mercy of your raiding force, which has taken negligible damage (and even if the damage is significant, who cares, it's a small raiding force)
3) Eliminate the guardian and its buddies on your side of the wormhole using a vastly superior force
4) Rinse and repeat for every guard post in the system, including the command station and warp gate.

Now you've got an almost empty system with maybe a few loose units here and there, which you can mop up with a minimal force. While I appreciate trying to introduce an element of 'counterattack' when attacking an enemy system, when the AI completely abandons its tactical locations to go get killed, that's probably going a little over board.

Anyone else notice this?

[HitmanN]

In my case it's usually enough to just pop your head on an AI planet, shoot a little, then retreat, and at best every starship and guardian on the AI planet follows through the wormhole, usually sooner than later. On average planets it makes things very easy, and on planets where you need tactics it makes things really hard. Like a mk3 or mk4 planet with a few dozen starships and guardians. Doesn't matter if you engage them with defense or offense, there's sometimes just too many to handle at once, and they all come at you at the same time, regardless of tactic.

Overall, I think Guardians should remain on guard duty, like their name applies. Starships can go on offense if they want. That'd help separate the roles of the two better.

[orzelek]

HitmaN are you using long range ships or have Tag Teamer AI?

Usually if you poke into enemy planet with flagship for example it will stir only one WH guards and they will come to you to die.

[Giegue]

alot of us have been saying that since the beta testing, but they said something to the effect of "that's how they're supposed to behave"

[Winter Born]

check mantis and comment or post a new issue
You may also want to include AI type and difficulty if you notice a difference in behavior

see my Sig for help.

[Wingflier]

I personally don't find them being "overzealous".  On an 80+ planet map on hard, it would be (in my opinion) nearly impossible to win if you had to clear out every planet (especially MKIVs) with upwards of 20 different Guardians present + Ion Cannons and/or Fortresses, and even more if there is an Eye or they reinforce.  Sorry but I have to agree with Chris if he said that this behavior was "intended", I would completely understand.

In addition, I have had more than 1 important structure or set of structures destroyed as a result of a massive Guardian push that I couldn't stop.  In my most recent game I lost a Mark IV Factory to a ninja Guardian counter-attack on a Mark III planet; needless to say, that was very devastating for me.  Sure, when you are prepared for them all to come through 1 wormhole, things are quite easy to handle; but often times the enemy planet will be bordering several wormholes, or there will be another attack happening in your base simultaneously that would prevent you from being able to efficiently deal with the Guardian "force".

I haven't experienced all the Guardians coming through my wormholes on a whim either.  I usually have to destroy a key structure like an AI Eye or a Fortress to get them to respond like that.  So it's not like I haven't committed a large group of forces and potential danger to myself to evoke that kind of reaction.

If, for example, the Guardians were to be changed in a fashion that would prevent them from counter-attacking after a key structure was destroyed, then there would need to be a LOT less of them in each system for the game to be even possible to beat on "Hard" or better settings.  Prior to 4.0 Guardians didn't even exist and beating a hard difficulty game was plenty hard, at this point, without the counter-attack mechanic, it would be damn near impossible.  That behavior could be occurring because you're playing on an easier setting, which could explain their "overzealousness".

[HitmanN]

I'm not arguing the counter-attack would be a bad thing. I'm just saying that almost every single time, against any kind of AI type (played about 6 different types with 4.0), after I perform even the slightest of attack on an AI planet, and retreat, they send every single guardian and starship on that planet after me or to one of the other bordering planets I control. It's just simply way too common.

It's

A) Predictable, something that AI War was originally promoted to not be so much.
B) Equally damn near impossible to defend in some cases.

For instance, I'm currently in a game against a Starfleet Commander and Grav Driller, pretty early still, about 3 hours on Epic, and there's a Mk4 planet next to my home planet. It's simply impossible to attack there because of the rising starship count. And if I did attack there, they'd just all gang up on me, like has happened on every other planet in the same game so far. There's a Mk4 planet in almost every direction I can go, 2 or 3 hops, so I can hardly progress to any direction at all, so I can't unlock new tech, yet the Mk4 planets keep racking up starships and guardians. Last time I checked, the Mk4 next to my home had something like 16 Zeniths, 6 Spires, 18 Raid SS and around 20 guardians. They're almost all mk3+ (where applicable). I can't ninja them one by one, because of the massive counter-attack, and if they attack, I simply can't get high enough tech to defend by then. I'm simply waiting for the first CPA to hit so they forcefully crush me and I can start a new game in defeat.

Admittedly, it was a bad starting position, and I'm not the best player out there, and I may have somehow been able to hit that Mk4 in very early game, but it's highly unlikely, and would've cost me a fortune, considering the resistance of several Mk4 starships and guardians from the start. It's just an example of how easy it is to get stuck and obliterated in the long run, with this sort of system in place. If the AI types do cause these to happen, then it's a pretty massive difference they make to a game.

[Edit: I keep talking about starships, but I mean both starships and guardians. They act nearly identically, so I tend to think of guardians as a starship variation.  ]

[wyvern83]

You could nuke one of them..

All of the starships would survive but as long as there are no mkV guardians or fleet-ships on the planet you'd destroy everything else. Its a high price but it is an alternative. Could you stave off the counter-attack from one of the mkIV worlds nearby if it was just the starships?

[HitmanN]

All of the starships would survive but as long as there are no mkV guardians or fleet-ships on the planet you'd destroy everything else. Its a high price but it is an alternative. Could you stave off the counter-attack from one of the mkIV worlds nearby if it was just the starships?

I thought about that, and I'd say no.

Maybe if I had spent every single point of knowledge I have on starships, heavy beam cannons and grav turrets, then maybe.. just maybe, if they don't all attack at once. But generally speaking, think about 18 Mk3+ Raid SS, 10 Zenith and 9 Spire ganging up on you when you have only four planets and the tech you could achieve with the knowledge from those, and they warp straight to your home system, through a hole that is not on the other side of the planet, but roughly half that distance away from your home station. All of those starships would go straight for your home station. Do you really think you could survive? If so, then I'd like to know what sort of magic you're doing to pull that off. They'd probably wipe your miscellaneous defenses along their path anyways, so you could really only count on long range weapons to survive such a pile of starships.

There's also the fact that if you had spent your knowledge on defenses and starships only, you'd be less likely to control 4 planets in this scenario. Every captured planet has had a pile of starships/guardians of its own, so you need offense and defense elsewhere too.

Maybe if I had nuked the planet very early on, it might've been slightly more possible, but really, how often do you start your game by nuking the next planet before even trying to capture it?

Also, I'm not expecting to win every game, obviously, but the difference between this, and some other AI types is just...

BUT!

I might try a nuke regardless. I'm bound to lose anyways, so might as well go out with a bang. xP

[Malibu Stacey]

I'm simply waiting for the first CPA to hit so they forcefully crush me and I can start a new game in defeat.

[Edit: I keep talking about starships, but I mean both starships and guardians. They act nearly identically, so I tend to think of guardians as a starship variation.  ]

CPA won't use mark IV ships unless the AIP is high enough to send mark IV waves at you so that system will just grow & grow & grow (except for when it triggers border aggression, good luck with that). CPA ships should all be the same mark level as the current AI tech level in the summary.

I agree with your grouping of starships & guardians. I really don't see any difference either other than guardians don't come with warp waves & I can't build my own ones.

There are ways to take out that mark IV planet early on but the crux of it is, unlock mark II ships & blob. I don't see nukes as an answer (ever) but I try to keep AIP as low as possible.

[HitmanN]

There are ways to take out that mark IV planet early on but the crux of it is, unlock mark II ships & blob. I don't see nukes as an answer (ever) but I try to keep AIP as low as possible.

True, it's often possible, but in this case in the time you build your blob, the planet has twice as many starships and guardians too. You get stronger, the AI gets stronger.

I've often taken a Mk4 planet early when there are no excessive amounts of starships and guardians.

Maybe if Starfleet Commanders' extra starships were the level of the AIP Mark, then it wouldn't make such a huge difference in power. I was originally kind of hoping the Starfleet Commander used starships instead of fleet ships, but still roughly the same value and strength as it would normally use fleet ships. Doesn't feel to be so right now. Or maybe it's just me. *shrugs*

[superking]

starship captain defo needs tweaking towards the direction of sanity.. much heavier use of light starships and far less likelyhood of spawning spires/zeniths would be a good start

[Wingflier]

I'm not arguing the counter-attack would be a bad thing. I'm just saying that almost every single time, against any kind of AI type (played about 6 different types with 4.0), after I perform even the slightest of attack on an AI planet, and retreat, they send every single guardian and starship on that planet after me or to one of the other bordering planets I control. It's just simply way too common.

It's

A) Predictable, something that AI War was originally promoted to not be so much.
B) Equally damn near impossible to defend in some cases.

For instance, I'm currently in a game against a Starfleet Commander and Grav Driller, pretty early still, about 3 hours on Epic, and there's a Mk4 planet next to my home planet. It's simply impossible to attack there because of the rising starship count. And if I did attack there, they'd just all gang up on me, like has happened on every other planet in the same game so far. There's a Mk4 planet in almost every direction I can go, 2 or 3 hops, so I can hardly progress to any direction at all, so I can't unlock new tech, yet the Mk4 planets keep racking up starships and guardians. Last time I checked, the Mk4 next to my home had something like 16 Zeniths, 6 Spires, 18 Raid SS and around 20 guardians. They're almost all mk3+ (where applicable). I can't ninja them one by one, because of the massive counter-attack, and if they attack, I simply can't get high enough tech to defend by then. I'm simply waiting for the first CPA to hit so they forcefully crush me and I can start a new game in defeat.

Admittedly, it was a bad starting position, and I'm not the best player out there, and I may have somehow been able to hit that Mk4 in very early game, but it's highly unlikely, and would've cost me a fortune, considering the resistance of several Mk4 starships and guardians from the start. It's just an example of how easy it is to get stuck and obliterated in the long run, with this sort of system in place. If the AI types do cause these to happen, then it's a pretty massive difference they make to a game.

[Edit: I keep talking about starships, but I mean both starships and guardians. They act nearly identically, so I tend to think of guardians as a starship variation.  ]

To be honest man, that's less of an issue with the AI counter-attacking you, and more of an issue of the Starfleet Commander being absolutely insane.

I've never played Zenith Remnant or any of the expansions, so I can't completely comment on this, but in the original game, on any difficulty, against any AI, I have NEVER seen that concentration of Starships on any planet, even AI homeworlds after 10+ hours of playing on hard; much less seeing that kind of force on a planet outside my base.

You can't blame the AI for counter-attacking with that entire force if you try to assault them, because logically, that would be the best choice for them in that situation; in fact, the best choice would just be not to wait for you to attack at all and just roll right over your base at any given time.

Basically what I'm saying is that the AI shouldn't be blamed for making the best choice in that scenario, the best choice being wiping you out when you piss them off.  The problem you are describing has more to do with the fact that there is no way any AI should have that many Starships on any planets that early into the game.

[Giegue]

you... are you even listening to what he's saying? he's saying that starships and gaurdians aren't really all that different. and that they always counter attack full force at the slightest poke. meaning if he sent in a few fighters, they would counter attack full force.

[Wingflier]

you... are you even listening to what he's saying? he's saying that starships and gaurdians aren't really all that different. and that they always counter attack full force at the slightest poke. meaning if he sent in a few fighters, they would counter attack full force.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.  The AI is making the best decision by counter-attacking him on the slightest poke.  You stirred up the beehive, and they know they can kill you, so why wouldn't they?

The problem is not that the AI is making the best decision, they shouldn't be punished for that.  The problem is that their force is simply too massive at that point in the game.