Author Topic: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative  (Read 7951 times)

Offline liq3

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2009, 09:27:32 am »
;D I vote for it! ;)  :P

I still think there ought to be a lore x4000 - Even if you say you don't need one, i think we do. If only to put everything in the game into a lore that actually works (doesn't have to be realistic) but without a lore stuff like this is bound to confuse.

I also think we really need a better written Introduction, you know an actual story ;)
I like reading well written lore. Vendetta-online and Lusternia are 2 good examples.

At the same time I think it's a "nice to have but not required" thing. 

Offline x4000

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2009, 09:33:19 am »
I'm not in favor of renaming units for the heck of it -- parasites are pretty iconic at this point, and their name is what it is for better or worse.  The logic behind the name is not that they themselves are parasites in the traditional sense, but that they help the player controlling them ride off of the work of the opponent for free (making the player the actual parasite in that sense).  I was for renaming Missiles to Warheads because it was genuinely confusing in the context of the game, but this is just semantics.

I still think there ought to be a lore x4000 - Even if you say you don't need one, i think we do. If only to put everything in the game into a lore that actually works (doesn't have to be realistic) but without a lore stuff like this is bound to confuse.

Well, it depends on what you mean by lore.  In general, all of the ships are quite consistent internally, with things there explaining the exo-galaxy ship production of the AI, etc.  Everything makes sense, even if you don't always agree with it.  Are all of the ships necessarily feasible or realistic?  No way, as I was saying before.  Are there any large logical conflicts with them?  No, not that I'm aware of.  That I'm careful about.

I also think we really need a better written Introduction, you know an actual story ;)

Thank you for insulting my writing.  I'm a plenty fine writer, thank you very much, but oftentimes less is more.  I was going for something along the lines of the opening to Crystalis.  I don't plan on rewriting it anytime soon, and there won't ever be anyone else's writing in AI War but mine, sorry.

For me, this whole discussion is like standing at the base of a mountain and staring at the pebbles at our feet.  The mountain is the gameplay -- this is what the game is.  I refuse to get dragged into the mud focusing on something that 99% of players are going to ignore, and which will just divert my attention from things that would actually improve the game.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2009, 09:39:46 am »
;D Well.. i think those 4 blocky sentences can not be considered writing even if i had a very very good day ;p

But you are right, its a pebble in front of gameplay, though you shouldn't underestimate the amount of people who do read the backstory of a game. A lore is basically that all your units are put into context and explained in it... Its not important to have, just nice to have. ^^

It could be done in the Wiki even
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Offline darke

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2009, 09:41:23 am »
I second the motion on "intro is thinly veiled story to get on with the action, let us get back to talking about stuff that matters".

Otherwise I'm going to have to start making comparisons against other things that are short on plot and long on action. Like Hollywood movies, FPSes, and what-the-internet-is-for. (Pr0n in case you're asking. And no I'm not going to get that song from the Avenue Q musical out of my head for the rest of the night now. :) )

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2009, 09:42:05 am »
Argh, i hate you, now i got the song in memory as well

Make it go awayyyyyy
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2009, 09:42:27 am »
<Disconnected Flavour Text>

 --- Human Civil War Begins ---

“...As the human civil war progressed, the factions became increasingly desperate to stem the immense losses of life sustained aboard their warships. In response to this, Quantum Non-Local Command (QNLC) technology was developed. QNLC modules made use of the quantum entanglement principle to allow highly trained crews to operate vessels from the relative safety of the planetary command hubs, without fear that their communications would be intercepted or jammed...

“...the highly sophisticated combat AIs quickly made human crews obsolete. The AIs were allowed to conduct military campaigns against the other factions with an ever increasing level of independence. Soon, all but the highest echelons of military commanders were legally subordinate to the AIs, which had direct control of almost all military assets through the QNCL technology...

 --- AIs were specifically not given direct control of missile silos, and hence never developed the necessary interfaces for controlling them ---

...the newly developed 'parasitic' weaponry allowed the QNLC modules aboard vessels to be forcibly recalibrated to link with the attacking faction's own Quantum Command Hubs, effectively allowing them to take control of the ship. Performing this recalibration requires direct physical contact with the QNLC module, specialized 'parasitic' shells were developed for...

 --- AIs turn on humanity somewhere in here ---

</Disconnected Flavour Text>
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 09:44:38 am by Revenantus »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2009, 09:45:04 am »
Very nice, now copy and paste that into the game please  ;D ;D ;D..

Damn that tune is still in my head..  :'( :'( :'( :'(

Anyone noticed i am bit bored today? My client is taking a break.. heh
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Offline darke

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 09:50:41 am »
Argh, i hate you, now i got the song in memory as well

Make it go awayyyyyy
There's always some new site;
I can browse all day and night;
It's like I'm surfing at the speed of light!
Fooooor Poooooorn!


And yes, I do torment other people with this, since I have the sheet music to Avenue Q. Is quite amusing at times. :)


Offline Velox

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 09:07:55 pm »

     I dug the introduction text - a generally sparse and brutally candid account of humanity's predicament, an occasional almost-lyrical turn of phrase to really hammer something home (the littered orbits bit springs to mind,) and that one-word conclusion that basically says "this has to be done, and you have to do it.  Now."  I felt it.
     The sheer number of opinions here on something as minor as how parasites work demonstrates that the current balance of atmosphere vs. unknown in the game has been extremely successful at motivating players to generate their own internal context for the action that occurs.  If you really want fluff and background story, make some up - this game makes a great framework for it!  Share it, even.  That's part of the fun.  Laying down a lot of "official" (and ultimately meaningless, as story is tangential to the gameplay) background material would just reduce those tantalizing "I wonder..." spaces that we fill in ourselves.  And, as cap'n X points out, making up an arbitrary story and then allowing it to place constraints on the design is a little silly for a non-story-based game like AI War. 
     Less is more.






     PS - Real human crews on the starships and remote operation links for the throwaway ships, and parasites can work because once you have physical access to a system no data security measure can hold up - and nothing says "physical access" like shooting something through a hull!
     Definitely part of the fun.

Offline x4000

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2009, 09:10:39 pm »
     I dug the introduction text - a generally sparse and brutally candid account of humanity's predicament, an occasional almost-lyrical turn of phrase to really hammer something home (the littered orbits bit springs to mind,) and that one-word conclusion that basically says "this has to be done, and you have to do it.  Now."  I felt it.

Thanks for that!  I worked really hard on that text, actually.  As any novelist who has had to write query letters can tell you, sometimes effective brevity is much harder than long-form rambling.

     The sheer number of opinions here on something as minor as how parasites work demonstrates that the current balance of atmosphere vs. unknown in the game has been extremely successful at motivating players to generate their own internal context for the action that occurs.  If you really want fluff and background story, make some up - this game makes a great framework for it!  Share it, even.  That's part of the fun.  Laying down a lot of "official" (and ultimately meaningless, as story is tangential to the gameplay) background material would just reduce those tantalizing "I wonder..." spaces that we fill in ourselves.  And, as cap'n X points out, making up an arbitrary story and then allowing it to place constraints on the design is a little silly for a non-story-based game like AI War. 
     Less is more.

Couldn't have said it better myself!  You've really expressed what I was trying (and failing) to get across.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2009, 11:18:37 pm »
Well i can see your points, seriously ;) I just had to think about this a while and i think you both misunderstand why i ask for a lore/story instead of a short intro (Which for its purposes is well written, but its not in any sense a lore/story)

A Lore/Story:
- It gives the enemy a face, which makes the battle personal and not "just another AI"
- Giving the AI back story to the atrocities it committed will boost the will of the player to win
- A lot of people really do wonder how it came to be that the situation we see at the start of the game came to pass
- The oddest units can be easily included - they develop after the lore after all (the lore only goes up-to game start)
- Things like the Captive Humans can be interwoven as well


What i strongly disagree with, is that Less is More when it comes to a Story/Lore. No Lore means the game has no higher purpose beyond playing it - No moral incentive, no good evil and evil etc.

AI War is not just a simple game - It is an epic rts - Epic enough to have 10+ Hours playtime - and that absolutely needs a lore. This is not Random RTS 531 where a skirmish takes 20 minutes

I hope that makes more sense.

Edit: And beside giving the enemy a face, it gives your units a face - Which means you care for them.
Of course this is an optional thing for players. Some don't care, some would like it, some want.. I see no reason why not to satisfy each faction
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 11:29:51 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2009, 11:29:01 pm »
I disagree that the game 'needs' lore, as others have pointed out, the player is free to invent whatever backstory/justification they want for their own civilisation in their mind.

Personally, I like lore, but since its existence isn't strictly necessary in a game like AI War, whether or not it should be in the game is really down to the desires of the player base. From the response to the poll, there is some support for lore, but it seems like there's a whole lot more indifference in there. Extrapolated to a larger player base, that suggests that it's not really desired content.

Essentially, why don't you write your own story in your mind to give the war some context?

There is one quite significant point I want to make;

Since the game does not need lore, any lore would be built around the game, and not the other way around. There is absolutely no way units could be added/removed/changed because it suits the plot.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 11:34:24 pm by Revenantus »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2009, 11:38:12 pm »
I haven't said its "needs" one though, i said it would be better if it had a decent lore ;)

It is a suggestion after all ;)

As for the parasite thing, i already renamed it to Reclamator ;p (All hail modding ;p)

Edit: But to clarify - I am indifferent to what unit belongs to the lore or not (and equally, i am not for nerfs based on lore), a lore ENDS at the game-start.

Edit2: Actually i said it needs one, but i meant this game genre needs a lore.. all hail bad expressions
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 11:44:26 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline x4000

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2009, 11:40:23 pm »
Well, eRe4s3r, I see your points, too.  Well said in that last post in particular.  I very much understand where you are coming from, and with many other games I agree.

I guess it just comes down to what is trying to be accomplished here.  I really do believe that Less is More in the case of certain games.  I don't want more story than what your average Zelda game gives, for instance.  I very much enjoyed the story in Super Mario RPG, but I find the stories in a lot of the Paper Mario games to be too longwinded.  I enjoy Final Fantasy but find most western RPGs to be too longwinded.  Etc.

In so many games, there is an abundance of story that is not all that original, not all that interesting, and kind of redundant and bloated in its execution.  With some good cutting (and I mean cutting over 50%), you'd arrive at something more the quality of a novel, which I think is important.  I prefer reading over television, and I've been an avid writer my whole life even though I never quite made it into print, so this isn't just the opinion of someone who doesn't want to read.

As a great example of Less Is More, you have Braid.  A lot of people criticize the little story bits as being unintelligible or whatever else, but I thought it was well done an poignant.  And with a lot of the older NES games, where text space was limited, a very limited amount of text was able to convey so much.  Zelda 2 is absolutely one of my favorite games, partly just because of the atmosphere of exploration and mystery that is there.  With pages and pages of text, I think it would have been a much less compelling experience.

As an example from movies, I think that in a lot of movies it is important to not show the monster.  Look at all of Hitchcock's films.  Less really is more in those cases, because not knowing, not seeing, is what makes it significant.  I liked the M. Night movie Signs, but the worst thing in that was when they showed the aliens.  Bad, bad move.  The original Star Wars movies were so much better than the later ones also partly because they were more restrained in their storytelling, and followed the "show don't tell" rule (amongst so many other things they did better, but I digress).

Looking around at many other mediums, take Calvin and Hobbes for instance.  There is something called "The Noodle Incident" that Watterson never explains, though it is referred to several times.  In one of his books about the strip, he talked about how that was intentional -- any prosaic thing he could come up with could never compare to the crazy half-formed ideas that immediately spring to mind in all the readers for what this "noodle incident" could possibly be.

Sometimes it is good to be explicit.  Dialogue, characters, etc, are important in some games.  Other times it is better to be more subtle.  Show, don't tell.  Games are a visual medium, and like with great movies, great games don't always have to have a lot of talking.  The lore is right in front of you, staring you in the face.  You are playing it, creating new lore as you do so.  The half-formed stories in your head are vastly superior to the stories that you or I or anyone could actually put down in the game itself to make people read.  When you put it on paper, it's showing the monster.

Some movies need to show the monster.  Some games need to have a lot of text.  But I think an important skill of a disciplined writer is to know when to write and when to hang it up.  An amateur writer will always spill out pages and pages of narrative for even the slightest prompt, never pausing to think how original or interesting it really is.  This is what you get in a lot of games, and I'm so against that.  Ico is a game that is immensely evocative, and tells a wonderful story with hardly any dialogue at all.  The latest Prince of Persia game has rafts of snappy dialogue between Elika and the Prince, but it's mostly pretty forgettable.  They have some great lines in there, and if they had cut down to just those it could have been much more poignant, but as it was the Prince and Elika could ramble on for hours it felt like.

I guess I just subscribe more to the older school of thought, which is not too much in vogue right now.  Suspense movies have been supplanted by horror movies, after all, and I feel like that's a crying shame.

In the end, what does this really mean?  Does this mean I will look down on you or anyone else who wants more story, or who wants to create fanfiction?  Of course not.  There are loads of games and stories where I want more, and where I considered writing fanfiction (or did write it). However, something I have realized through my trials and tribulations as a writer is that this very state of "wanting more" is in fact a good thing.  Leaving the reader loving what was there but wanting more is where you want them -- if you satisfy every last craving for information about the universe of the story, you wind up with a lot of the more modern book series that I am not as much a fan of.  It cheapens them to a degree.

But some people will disagree with that assessment, and will always clamor for more, or write fanfiction.  That's cool with me.  Just don't expect me to add to the official cannon for AI War beyond the minimum needed to create and maintain atmosphere.  And the bulk of that atmosphere, as in the 8-bit classics of yore, is created via gameplay and gameplay alone.  Will every game I code be like this?  No.  But I'm quite proud of how this one turned out.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Great Parasite Nerf Initiative
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2009, 11:48:13 pm »
Yeah, i do not want to pressure you into making any official lore - In many ways this is more a poke at the community to see how much support there is for writing a backstory (i could contribute exploding spaceships!) ;p

I guess this is a chasm hardcore RPG players are bound to hit. I want to know more about a backstory, always. And not always is it well written, but sometimes (Fallout comes to mind) you can discover so many awesome interesting stories in the "lore" of that. ... ehm yeah ;)
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