Author Topic: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems  (Read 4306 times)

Offline contingencyplan

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The past few weeks I've been thinking about how Golems are used and their impact on the game, and some of the "problems" I see with the current state of affairs. After reading the following two threads, I think I'm not alone in my views, so I figured I'd post my thoughts:
For simplicity, let us assume that the Player starts with a single homeworld, that the game is using Broken Golems and / or Botnet Golems Hard, and that the AI is 7 / 7 difficulty, as these settings are considered "Normal" / the primary balance point (in particular, Exo waves don't receive extra multipliers). Let us also assume that no other plots are enabled, and that there is no automatic AIP increase.

Finally, the reader should of course assume that, as a newb, I Don't Know What I'm Doing, so I'm sure there are some things that I'm not taking into account or that should be handled by a more sophisticated playstyle than I employ. :)


Exo Wave Response

We should begin by noting a basic principle / semi-invariant of the game "loop": the AI's efforts to kill the Player are in direct proportion to the actions taken by the Player. This invariant is maintained by increasing the AI's efforts whenever the Player takes some action against the AI. The precondition for this loop (beginning the game) establishes this invariant with the minimal AIP vs. the Player holding his homeworld. Should the Player take absolutely no action (i.e., just lets the game sit running), then the invariant requires that the AI's efforts do not increase (automatic AIP increase aside, which violates this invariant to "encourage" the Player to take action, which is why I am assuming it is off).

An implied corollary to the invariant is that the form that the response takes depends on the type of action, with AIP serving as a counter / indicator for how many "general" actions the Player has taken (e.g., killing a command station or other AI-valued building) and therefore the AI's current level of galaxy-wide effort. Other mechanics, such as hacking, use their own counters to ensure that the response and effort correspond to the Player's actions.

In this light, the Exo Waves that occur on Broken Golems Hard are specifically intended to counter the added strength of the Player's forces due to Golems. However, by tying the strength and timing of the Exos strictly to AIP, the above invariant and corollary are violated --- the strength of the AI's Golem-related response is independent of any Golem-related actions (or lack thereof) taken by the Player. We can see evidence of this as follows (some of these points are raised in the Exo Waves thread linked above):
  • Exo waves can occur before the Player has even found any Golems (much less brought them online), causing an aggravating "loss by RNG" due to the seeding of the Golems.
  • Refusing to take any Golem-related actions (i.e., choosing not to capture any Golems) is not a effective strategy, as it has no effect on the Golem-related response.
  • Similarly, it is possible for the Golem-related response to outstrip the Player's ability to compensate for it, especially when the AIP leaps due to the use of nukes or killing an AI homeworld, even if the Player's strategy is "TAKE ALL THE GOLEMS."


Proposed Solution

My proposed solution draws from the Fallen Spire plot. Fallen Spire Exos are consistent with the invariant and corollary, as the strength and timing of the FS Exos are determined by the number of Spire cities the Player holds. The Player can choose not to take any FS-related action and win the game normally; he gets none of the bonuses from the FS ships, but also does not have to fend off extra forces that he did not instigate. It also means that the Player can choose not to progress any further because he lacks the ability (for whatever reason) to handle stronger Exos (noted in the last paragraph of this post).

We could apply the same thinking to the Golem Exos: base the size of the Golem Exos on the number of Golems the Player has brought online. Every time the Player brings a Golem online, the "Golem progress" value increases, similar to how the "FS Progress" increases for every city built. This preserves our invariant: the Player is again in control of the effort put forth by the AI. This means that  Exos do not spawn before a Player has brought a Golem online (and can therefore presumably defend against the Exo), Players can play without penalty by refusing to bring a single Golem online, and the Exo strength cannot become insanely more massive than the total firepower of all Golems in the galaxy.

By preserving the invariant, the Player can actually apply some strategy to their Golem-related actions --- "I want that extra Hive Golem, but I'm barely holding on right now..." rather than "I'm barely holding on right now, so I must take that extra Hive Golem."

It is also worth noting that Broken Golems Medium already upholds the invariant --- if the Player takes no Golems, then there is no associated AIP increase. By making the Exo response proportional to the number of Golems brought online, this smooths / makes consistent the difficulty progression for the overall Broken Golems plot.

Note that this does not mean that Exos could never be tied to AIP. I would expect that some players enable Golems simply for the added challenge of having to deal with the "always-on," AIP-based Exos. To this end, I would propose having a separate "Exo Plot" that behaves the same way that Broken Golems Hard does now (always-on, AIP-based), though the difficulty would likely have to be scaled back, as there are no associated "superweapons" to counter-balance it.

Level of Progression and the Botnet Golem

Most likely, not all Golems would provoke an equal response; instead, it would be better to make the progression proportional to the power they add to the Player's arsenal / threat they pose to the AI. For example, as noted in the threads above, the Regen Golem should provoke a lower response than the Hive Golem, as the latter increases the Player's capabilities much more.

This has an added benefit: using this mechanic, the handling of the Botnet Golem can be simplified somewhat. Instead of having a separate Botnet Golem plot, Botnets could be handled in the same fashion as other Golems, albeit with the most severe "Golem progress" increase. It also means that multiple Botnets could be seeded again for even more Exo-related hilarity.

Alternatively, if the Botnet remains as a separate plot (e.g., because the Botnet's ability to inhale entire waves cannot be balanced against a single "Golem progress" increase), then its Exo progression should still satisfy the above invariant. In this case, the "Player's action" is the increase in firepower due to the zombified ships. Thus, we could (engine permitting) use the number of inhaled ships as the basis for the increase, or use a similar metric. Other similar metrics could be used (combined zombified firepower, for instance), so long as the "Botnet progress" is based on the Player's actions with the Botnet Golem.
  • I should note that I think this would be overkill: tracking the number of ships zombified specifically by the Golem would be hard on the programmers / engine and impossible for the Player, and the Exo wave response (as noted in the above threads) generally contain ships that the Botnet cannot inhale, meaning that the response, while proportional, is not going to be directly equivalent anyways.


Progression Permanence

A more difficult point to address is the permanence of the progression --- the fact that once the "Golem progress" increases, there is no way of lowering it. In the case of the FS cities, this permanence of increase is matched by the permanence of the Player's action / benefit: it is practically impossible to destroy a city once it is built. The player can be temporarily deprived of its capabilities (due to its attached buildings being destroyed or the Player losing supply), but the Player can recover from this loss, provided he survives. Therefore, the Player does not have a sense that the response invariant is violated (in that the Player's actions have been undone, but the AI's response has not), because the Player can take steps to regain the benefits of the actions that he has taken.

In the case of Golems (both with the current AIP-based Exos and the above "on-activation" Exos), it is possible that the Golem is destroyed, undoing the Player's actions. Some players have noted that this becomes all but a certainty as the Exos increase in power, essentially forcing them to avoid using the Golems in defense against the Exos caused by the Golems, which seems somewhat perverse.

There are a few ways we can deal with this. We could maintain the status quo: the destruction of a Golem has no effect on the Golem progress. This treats "Player's actions" in the response invariant as the discrete actions taken by the Player, rather than the effects / visible outcomes of those actions --- i.e., a Player's actions, once done, cannot be undone. This is obviously the simplest to implement, and it is a valid interpretation of our invariant and is consistent with our notion of AI response (i.e., the AI is responding based on how much of a threat it views the Player to be, which is not necessarily how much of a threat the Player actually is). However, as noted above, this approach can leave the Player with a sense that the battle becomes more lopsided over time. For example, if the Player loses all his Golems, then the Player is left with (roughly) the same situation as if he had taken no Golems, but the AI is responding as if the Player still had all of these Golems.

Another is to base the progression on the number of Golems the Player currently has. It takes the converse approach to the above --- Player actions are viewed in terms of the Player's benefit, rather than just a one-time event, and therefore they can be undone. It also makes the game seem a bit fairer / less frustrating, as it does keep the Player from essentially losing the game because they lost their Golems on a single Exo wave gone wrong. However, this is a somewhat more complicated solution --- namely, I don't know how the internal FS progress counter is maintained, though I would expect it is simply incremented every time a city is created rather than by counting the number of cities the player currently holds. Maintaining a counter on "number of Golems alive" may be a bit tricky from the programming side of things.

Finally, we could in some fashion make the benefits of bringing a Golem online "permanent" in the same fashion as the Spire cities. Obviously, we don't want to make the Golems invincible (though that would be AWESOME :D), but we could give the Player some way of rebuilding a destroyed Golem. Offhand, there are a few ways of doing this, and I'm sure the community can come up with others:
  • Have Golems leave remains.
  • Instead of a Broken Golem, have a Broken Golem Factory (parsed as "a Golem Factory that is broken"), an expensive but hardy structure that must be brought online. Afterwards, this factory can make a single type of Golem, with ship cap determined by the number of factories for that type of Golem (similar to FS Shipyards).
  • One that I personally favor: when a Golem dies, a perma-cloaked "____ Golem Core" is spawned on the player's Homeworld. This core takes ~50% of the cost of the Golem to construct, and can build a "Broken ____ Golem" at 25% health (the core is consumed in the process).
It is worth noting that making Golems recoverable does not necessarily eliminate the well-designed "take care of this thing" aspect of their usage. For example, if there is an extra economic penalty associated with a Golem's death / rebuilding, then unless your econ is UH-MAZE-ING, the Player is going to protect the Golem to keep your econ from getting completely kneecapped during the rebuild. And the rebuild time still gives the AI time to send further waves or forces to kill the Player, so the Player may not be able to afford to lose the Golem even for a little while.


Conclusion

There are a few other changes I would suggest for Golems --- in particular, I think the purpose of the self-attrition mechanic would be better served by a constant resource drain. But I'll save those thoughts for another time.

Spirecraft are another notable exception to the response invariant, and I think that a similar approach would be useful there. However, their situation is more complicated due to their construction mechanism, their multiple mark levels, their self-sacrificing / non-repairable mechanic (in some cases), and their overall fragility for being considered a "superweapon" (at least in my experience). Handling these complications would likely require a more complex change to the plot's mechanics than the changes to Golems outlined above. However, I don't think that it would be a sin to change the Golem mechanics and leave the Spirecraft mechanics in place while a suitable set of changes to Spirecraft is found.

All in all, I think that the presence and use of Golems would be improved by making the above changes. However, as I noted above, there may be factors that I'm not aware of / considering that others with more experience should of course point out. :)


tl;dr: Basing Golem Hard Exos on the number of Golems activated = more better than.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 10:06:37 am »
Golems - Medium is already the solution to the problems you describe.  Golems - Hard is like AIP/hour in that it pushes you to act because whether you do anything or not, the situation is escalating constantly.  Several times combining Medium and Hard has been brought up so you both get AIP for bringing golems online and still get Exos.  This has been sometimes called Golems - Extreme.

You are probably over-concerned about Exo Wave deadliness.  In Golems - Hard 4/10 at 7/7 difficulty, I could probably go 3-4 Exos without any golems of my own and be perfectly fine.  I'm tempted to suggest I could actually win without actually using the Golems.  Some people have even suggested a Minor Faction that turns on Exo Waves without giving the player anything in return.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 10:34:23 am »
Making the AI hit back harder the more golems you have is too close to how things used to be for my comfort: used to be that any planet they were on got double-size waves (if human controlled) or double-reinforcements (if AI controlled, it would also instantly reinforce the planet as you entered).

It felt like a treadmill, where any advantage you got from them was just immediately countered by whatever the AI got in return.  Not many people used golems.

But yea, Medium is there for something closer to that :)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 10:37:42 am »
There was a suggestion for "extreme" Golems, spirecraft, and botnet, which would basically be the penalties of medium + the exo waves of hard. Sort of a "worst of both worlds" for those players who like to torture themselves. ;)


I would support that, if for no other reason then the sake of completion of "option space".

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 02:11:49 pm »
There was a suggestion for "extreme" Golems, spirecraft, and botnet, which would basically be the penalties of medium + the exo waves of hard. Sort of a "worst of both worlds" for those players who like to torture themselves. ;)

That MIGHT be a way to actually LOSE AI 1/1...
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 07:18:59 pm »
There was a suggestion for "extreme" Golems, spirecraft, and botnet, which would basically be the penalties of medium + the exo waves of hard. Sort of a "worst of both worlds" for those players who like to torture themselves. ;)

That MIGHT be a way to actually LOSE AI 1/1...

That was my suggestion actually, at least on Mantis. I don't think you could lose 1/1 even with that unless you specifically tried. If you didn't get any golems at all the 1/1 AI could be beaten off with your fleet alone.
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Offline contingencyplan

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 11:20:06 pm »
Well, I do have to say thanks for reading such a long text. I didn't realize how long it actually was until I had posted it. :) I can try to edit it to be shorter or summarize things at the top if y'all think it would be helpful.

I should note that I'm not posting due to problems I've personally experienced. For me, the Golems Hard Exos are inconsistent with the "response invariant," which is one of the things that sets AIW apart and makes it awesome. Just like in programming (my background), exceptions to the invariant make the game harder to reason about and create strategies in, and they permit pathological cases, such as Kahuna's quip that Hive Golems are necessary to survive the Exos on 10 / 10. While I understand that his post is about his specific case and a very high difficulty, his point is what nudged me towards writing down the thoughts I'd been building for a while.

I am aware of Golems Medium upholding the response invariant (and mention it as such in the above "dissertation" :P ). However, the score penalty for Easy and Medium indicates that those settings are not the "intended" / "normal" setting for the plot, and therefore those who want the full / intended experience should choose the Hard version of the plot. In other words, the Hard version of the plot is not intended to make the game harder by giving the AI an outright bonus like, say, Hybrids are.
  • To be clear, I'm not concerned by the score penalty at all --- I don't even really bother to check my score other than as an idle curiosity.
I could certainly see a market for Golems Extreme, and I propose (re-propose apparently?) a similar idea of a simple AIP-based always-on Exo. To me, this still does not answer the violation of the response invariant by the status quo. If the purpose of the Exos is to counter-balance the benefits that the Player gains (i.e., not may gain) from Golems, then the response should be proportional to the extent that the Player makes use of the bonus. These other options are ways of making the game outright harder on the Player. In short, give the Player the option of violating the response invariant, rather than forcing the choice just because the Player wants an Exo response to his Golems.

Making the AI hit back harder the more golems you have is too close to how things used to be for my comfort: used to be that any planet they were on got double-size waves (if human controlled) or double-reinforcements (if AI controlled, it would also instantly reinforce the planet as you entered).

It felt like a treadmill, where any advantage you got from them was just immediately countered by whatever the AI got in return.  Not many people used golems.

I wasn't aware of the older mechanic (I came in from the last time AIW was on sale on Steam, after LotS). Was this before the idea of Exos?

I do agree that such a mechanic would be annoying and majorly slow the game down --- Exos are a much better response. However, I don't think that this precludes making the size of the Exos dependent upon the number of activated Golems, which strikes me as a "baby with bathwater" conclusion. As noted, the proposed mechanic has been already been applied with good success in the Fallen Spire campaign. Furthermore, Exos keep the response separate from the "waves and reinforcement" mechanics that are part of every game, which makes balance simpler and makes the response seem "special" without seeming "grinding."

"This will only hurt for a moment..." :P


There was a suggestion for "extreme" Golems, spirecraft, and botnet, which would basically be the penalties of medium + the exo waves of hard. Sort of a "worst of both worlds" for those players who like to torture themselves. ;)

That MIGHT be a way to actually LOSE AI 1/1...

That was my suggestion actually, at least on Mantis. I don't think you could lose 1/1 even with that unless you specifically tried. If you didn't get any golems at all the 1/1 AI could be beaten off with your fleet alone.

That would be an interesting experiment - Exos all the way up on 1/1, see how hard it is. Like you say, probably not very hard, but could be hilarious.

If nothing else, a great evil joke to play on new players. "Yeah, turn them all the way up - it gives you more stuff!"  :o
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:23:14 pm by contingencyplan »

Offline Volatar

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 01:08:33 am »
Pretty sure this is the most well written request I have seen on these forums. I am completely in support of this idea. Exo's are more interesting than waves and threat since they are something different and unrelated to AIP.

The fact that Golem Exo's are AIP controlled just seems off, even from a lore standpoint. AIP measures the attention of the AIs in the galaxy. When you get your first spire city you have opened another front in the AI's exo-galactic war against the Spire, and as thus, they commit a portion of their exo-galactic forces against you and your new spire allies, proportional to said allies strength.

Golem Exo's also come from the same exo-galactic shipyards (that I am still waiting for in an expansion), but instead of being a committal of their main forces against a new front of the alien threats proportional to the threat, it's a committal of their main forces against a new front of the alien threats as measured by how pesky those humans have gotten.

It is an inherent part of the setup for AI War that the AIs do not commit their exo-galactic might to crushing the humans. Yet that is what they do in Broken Golems Hard.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2012, 01:42:16 am »
Just a few points I wanted to clarify in your post.

Score differential no longer exists between Golem - Medium, and Golem - Hard.  It would be better if they were renamed to Golem - Easy, Golem - AIP, Golem - Exo.

The exo response is timer based to basically force you to get off your butt and go get 'em.  There's some sense of balance in this.  It's quite possible to simply avoid taking systems with golems until you're ready for the 'final push', when your econ is rather powerful and you won't end up risking (and dealing with the previous economic damage) these machines by leaving them as neutrals until you're ready to use them.

Leaving these superweapons in a permanently protected state until ready for usage is possible by other means (within reason) but it doesn't 'move the game along'.  I'm not so sure I'm against the 'rev up' mechanisms behind golems either.  If I snag a few REALLY early (and pay for it) I can really get those golden hours to spend some quality time with the enemy and just absolutely ruin the AI in the starter area before I start paying in exos.  The other side is also true.  Losing a golem shouldn't slow down the response, at least not in the AI's eyes.  That golem returned massive gains (one hopes) prior to loss, and the AI is now extremely worried... there's more of them out there.

In addition, Golems - AIP is basically a direct response to golem usage, unlike exo.  The AIP goes up directly on rebuild and repair of these ships, causing an eventual 'fall from grace' due to their very existance.

However, a confusion point for me... what is 'response invariant'?  I'm utterly unfamiliar with the term and I need some additional context to understand your entire point.
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 02:15:07 am »
Interesting idea for a game: 1/1 AI, but EVERY minor faction cranked up to 10. Chaos and Hilarity ensue.
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Offline Histidine

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 08:07:23 am »
Score differential no longer exists between Golem - Medium, and Golem - Hard.  It would be better if they were renamed to Golem - Easy, Golem - AIP, Golem - Exo.
That raises the question: Why do Golems - Easy and Spirecraft - Easy give score penalties when no other positive minor faction does so (and no negative minor faction or AI plot increases score?) Or do they?

Offline relmz32

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 09:28:40 am »
Sir, You had me at invariant and corollary.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 10:22:24 am »
I wasn't aware of the older mechanic (I came in from the last time AIW was on sale on Steam, after LotS). Was this before the idea of Exos?
Yep, several variations of the theme were tried in the year preceding LotS.

Quote
I do agree that such a mechanic would be annoying and majorly slow the game down --- Exos are a much better response. However, I don't think that this precludes making the size of the Exos dependent upon the number of activated Golems, which strikes me as a "baby with bathwater" conclusion. As noted, the proposed mechanic has been already been applied with good success in the Fallen Spire campaign.
FS is a pretty different case due to the nature of the investment (takes substantial time to go from not-in to all-in, and generally speaking you never fully lose a city), and even there in the beta of that when I originally had exo strength vary by the number of spire capital ships you had (and actually at one point, also by whether those capital ships were on an AI planet) the player feedback was very negative.  Making it based on city count made sense because I specifically didn't want it tied to AIP, because it was modeling an alliance, not just the humans using what they'd found.

The golems and spirecraft are tied to AIP, conceptually, because it's just the humans using bigger toys.  Balance-wise, it also helps "keep the player honest" so they don't go the whole game without using them, then "flash build" some for the final assault and get the benefit before the hammer can fall.

Speaking more generally, I've found that players are psychologically much more inclined to accept "I start the game with bonus X, the AI starts the game with bonus Y" than "every time I get bonus X in the game, the AI counters with bonus Y".  Even if it works out mathematically identical, it just doesn't sit right, and it makes you wonder why you're bothering with bonus X.

If folks really want them tied partly to the number of active units (though I don't know if that'd work right with spirecraft), I can try that sometime post-6.0, but the AIP-tied part to avoid "snag them at the end" cheese is probably still necessary.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 10:51:35 am »
Couple of things:

I'm a very good example of why keith says "Player gets X, ai gets Y"... as the best solution.

I know I'm stuck with the exo waves, so I should use every golem I can use effectively.

By contrast, if I wanted a direct aip response, I'd pick medium.

By causing an aip response directly to my golems being activated, almost everyone would in some form do what Keith says. For me, it'd involve snagging any armored golems and botnets I can, while not taking any other golem until I'm ready to storm ai homeworlds.

I feel like the golems are truely a minor faction when they are on hard for they are different (different ai response), while on medium I feel like I'm just playing base game in a way, I get a tool in return for making the ai get a generalized anger...
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Golem Plot Suggestion: Tie Exo Wave Size to Number of Activated Golems
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 10:57:32 am »
Yea, I think Golems-Medium and Golems-Hard both add something to the game.  Personally I prefer the latter, but the former has a place.
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