Author Topic: Getting frustrated  (Read 4166 times)

Offline ckessel

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 04:14:45 pm »
ckessel, can I confirm what difficulty you're playing at?

Building a forcefield over your home command station early on is generally a good investment, especially since the AI is now far more vicious.

Were those turrets and ships your only defences? That's not a huge number 30 minutes in, what's your early game build strategy?

AI 5. Early, I build scouts, look around and try to take the best nearby planet. I build about 50 of each ship type and go take it. My ships are usually pretty much wiped in the process. I built the Mark III energy reactor pretty much right away as 1.20 has serious energy constraints. I pretty much just keep scaling up building docks to keep pace with my resource income as the game goes on. Nothing complicated.

In 1.013 usually a half dozen tractors and 9-10 turrets handled most any early wave. Waves early seemed to be maybe 20 ships in 1.013.

I only had 60 ships because was rebuilding after taking (and just failing) to take the planet next door. Even if I'd had 150 though, I'm not sure what I could have done against the raiders since they're quick. And having to use my entire force to stop a wave seems like overkill. What happens when more than one wave occurs? I can't have my entire force defending in two spots.

The AI basically made a "gate raid" against me and I'd need a force field to have a shot given raiders are tractor immune. 

Turrets seem to be taking longer to build in 1.20, though maybe that's my imagination.

Offline Fiskbit

  • Arcen Games Contractor
  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,752
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2009, 04:50:56 pm »
Sorry to hear you're still having such problems, ckessel. I hope you're not getting too discouraged.

Like Revenantus, I strongly recommend force fields, especially in newer versions of the game. They're a fantastic investment and can be the difference between life and death in many situations. Previously, the AI was keen on sending in large amounts of ships and having them go after harvesters and the like instead of the really important targets, but it's currently a lot more interested in destroying the command station when it has the odds in its favor. A force field can help prevent this.

Furthermore, having a lot of cruisers and some fighters by your home command station early in the game when you're vulnerable is a really good call. The cruisers can take out incoming bombers, which are a serious threat because they're so strong against force fields. Fighters are helpful against other things, such as those raiders you were facing. If they're going after your harvesters with these good defenses around your home station, then exo-shields are another great investment. Force fields around your home station are basically a necessity, though, in my opinion. If the AI has ships immune to force fields, then you need to focus on ship- and turret-based defenses, probably with force fields supplementing this (but don't be relying on them in this case). It's also good to keep some fighters out by the wormholes, at minimum.

The expected pacing of the game is to take a planet about every 45 minutes; depending on one's skill level, the surrounding planets, and aggressiveness of the AI, you may over or undershoot this, which is perfectly okay. At the start of the game, there's a lot to do, with scouting, picking out what research to get, building a fleet of a good mix of ships, and setting up defense, so taking that first planet can take a while. Most important of all at this time is having good defenses set up (I typically rely on force fields and ships rather than turrets) since unlike later in the game, you don't have a buffer between your homeworld and hostile planets. If you're making an attack before 30 minutes, I caution that you should tread carefully, since you may not have the forces built up to support it (which is what it sounds like is happening).

Regarding things to research, you may want to throw some research at exo-shields, better force fields, Mk II fighters, and perhaps lightning turrets in the early game. I find Mk II fighters to be a good investment because they're cheap and durable and they're a great complement to cruisers, while the other three are great defensive items. One good strategy for wormhole defense is to put a force field right next to the wormhole with tractor beam turrets and other turrets beneath it. This can prolong the life of your defenses and keep the enemy from ever escaping the wormhole. Coupled with lightning turrets, this can be a really effective strategy. Also, I typically go for starships early because they're so powerful on both offense and defense; with one raid or leech starship and some attention paid to keeping it repaired, you can take over a Mk I world. Just watch your energy and resources, as leech starships are energy intensive and starships in general are pricey and could tank your economy if you're overzealous with them.

Finally, even though docks cost a lot of energy in recent versions, managing them has become a lot easier in some regards. Because granularity has been raised, it's reasonable to rely on one dock for a planet, boosted by some engineers, since now you're wasting very little time between ships (1/24 of a second rather than 1 second) and can efficiently build units without the costs of having lots of docks. You start the game with a dock and a pair of Mk II engineers, which is a great combination for pumping ships out quickly. Also, energy management is clearly important in the newer versions; a couple Mk II reactors at the start should be good for a bit, perhaps with a Mk I reactor, as well, but if that's not enough, then a Mk III reactor isn't the end of the world. Two Mk II's and a I are 30 resources per second for 69,000 energy, while a Mk III is 40/s for 80,000 energy, which may be more than you need that early. If you have a lot of power planets, you can just pause and unpause reactors as you need them in order to maximize your income at any given time; if you have to build that Mk III reactor, it's probably a good idea to pause the others on your planet.

Perhaps some of that will help with your strategy?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.  Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline ckessel

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2009, 05:16:50 pm »
I appreciate the suggestions. I've stopped playing at the moment as 1.201F (and G) has a show stopper bug with reactors pausing in their build and never starting. Not sure how it ends up happening, but I posted it in the bug forums. I might go back to 1.013.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2009, 09:48:30 pm »
Okay, here's version H:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1072.msg6809.html#msg6809

Hopefully the Pause All change, plus the changes to cross-planet raids and wave size will both be a real boon and get the balance where it needs for you.  Again, my apologies for the rough time you've had of it, it's certainly not my goal to hand out beatings to new players. ;)  But I could not be any more grateful for the feedback you've provided, which shall hopefully get the middle difficulties where they should be and provide the sort of experience that you and others would want at that level.  Your misery has saved others!

The main challenge with difficulty in a game like this is when the AI improves and gets more interesting, I have to choose what levels to apply it at.  In prior-to-1.013 versions I was constantly getting complaints that the game was simply too easy to be fun below difficulty 7; from new players as well as veterans.  So in version 1.013 and 1.201 both, when there were a raft of AI improvements, I applied them to difficulty 5 and up as well.  Looks like I overdid it a bit, but hopefully now with your feedback this will make the AI more interesting and a reasonable challenge, without it being ridiculous.  I look forward to hearing how you think it is going on that front, if you have a chance (and the inclination) to try out the new version.

Best,
Chris
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline ckessel

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 12:20:31 am »
Okay, here's version H:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1072.msg6809.html#msg6809

Hopefully the Pause All change, plus the changes to cross-planet raids and wave size will both be a real boon and get the balance where it needs for you. 

Wow, that was quick! I'm definitely in favor of larger raids and less traumatic CPS attacks.The scale change between the two was a real shocker before. The previous CPS/wave ratio felt misleading...as if the AI treated me as a minor nit, a minor nit, WHAM, it pulls out the big gun all of a sudden.

The pause change is a nice reminder, but I think I just have a different perspective on the changes to how things are expensed when built. Ships didn't noticeably change given they were queued before, but the way structures are built is a big change.  Before, if I had it in the bank, I could build it. I liked that straightforwardness. Now, structures feel less straightforward. I place something to build it, but it's not really built and circumstances can change such that it might never build (e.g. running out of resources). It's also less clear how such builds are going to impact me in 5 minutes. In the old method, I immediately saw how low I was on metal or, more commonly for turrets, crystal after each single structure was placed. Now I can see I'm in deficit mode, but I don't really know how long I'm going to be in that mode or how my resource balance is going to look once they're built.

I understand the economic change reasons from a design perspective, giving a flow based economy. I'm just not sure that works well in tandem with the way dozens of structures can build simultaneously from a game perspective. Building units, and the resource constraints, were really obvious before. It's less transparent now and you can end up building yourself into a deficit such that no structures will ever finish.

I do want to say, AI Wars is pretty damn cool, and that's coming from a TBS guy. Even more kudos for such a small team cranking something like this out. I like info and the new detailed wave info really hits the spot for me.

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 01:11:35 am »
Well the point of the flow economy is that you can do exactly that, if you are not careful, you run negative to 0 resources and that is a part of gameplay. Be conscious in what you build when ;)

Generally its also better this way, because it forces people to get at least 3 planets (to get the command station resources and spread efficiency of generators optimal.

I haven't yet played any long game in 1.20 and hopefully the release of that version will come soon :P ATM the game is changing too much too quickly to really evaluate new strategies or how the economy really works out in terms of balance.
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline liq3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 01:15:39 am »
After reading erasers post, made me notice something.

Since it's flow based, you can't just have 5 starship cons all with flagships or w/e ready, then pop them out the second you get enough resources, which would be a terribe terrible exploit.

Also, I find flow based is much easier to understand. I know exactly how much I'm using. I've even used it with manufacteries to get perfect output (was building a starship, had +3m/s +7c/s, thanks to crystal manufacteris).

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 01:37:03 am »
yes, liq3 what you describe is exactly what i gave as reason for flow based economy ;) I thought it an exploit too - Because a ship was built without the resources spent , so basically you could start building ships early on and have them complete once you are in the positive instantly, instead of with wait time.

Aside that, the flow based economy also works well (though i hate to admit it) with the energy generators as they are in 1.20 - Generally the game became a lot smoother to play as well, at least to when i started playing it (1.09) because back then shipyards would be starved for resources and only 1 would build a ship even though your rate might have supported it if all build the same time..
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2009, 10:37:30 am »
The previous CPS/wave ratio felt misleading...as if the AI treated me as a minor nit, a minor nit, WHAM, it pulls out the big gun all of a sudden.

Yeah -- makes sense, and hopefully the new version will handle this a lot better for you.

In the old method, I immediately saw how low I was on metal or, more commonly for turrets, crystal after each single structure was placed. Now I can see I'm in deficit mode, but I don't really know how long I'm going to be in that mode or how my resource balance is going to look once they're built.

Well, honestly, the resource balance is fairly irrelevant now except as a buffer -- since nothing costs direct up-front resources anymore, that's your buffer for overflows in general.  The games Supreme Commander and Total Annihilation also used a similar flow-based mechanic to great success, and I think in general this makes things easier once you make the mental adjustment.  I remember being mildly put off by SupCom's economy when I first was playing it, but after a couple of hours it was one of my favorite things about the game (with a few gripes in their specific implementation). 

If you've got a -100 net metal income at the moment, but you're building a bunch of placed structures, then you know you need to have some buffer metal stored; if you've got several tens of thousands, then no need to give it another thought.  If it's dipping too low, then hit Pause All to pause the queues and let the structures finish, then re-enable the queues and everything is back to normal and you have what you need.  In the old system it was really easy to get the economy to tank if you were pushing it hard, and then you'd have a really hard time rebalancing it.  Plus, the stored resources really mattered for more than buffer there, since you often had to wait and save up for some big ship, which is no longer ever a worry.

I appreciate the feedback, and if there are any specific complaints I can address (like with the Pause All, which was a great suggestion), I'll definitely consider them.  But I think that the consensus in general (not just amongst expert players, but also a number of newer players here and elsewhere) is that the new economy is an adjustment for existing players, but overall a strong improvement.

I do want to say, AI Wars is pretty damn cool, and that's coming from a TBS guy. Even more kudos for such a small team cranking something like this out. I like info and the new detailed wave info really hits the spot for me.

I love it when a TBS fan is converted to playing AI War.  That's super rewarding for me, because I know the reputation that RTS has with most of you guys (and I know why).  Glad you're enjoying it, and I hope you have a better time of it with the new release!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline ckessel

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2009, 01:45:52 pm »
The games Supreme Commander and Total Annihilation also used a similar flow-based mechanic to great success, and I think in general this makes things easier once you make the mental adjustment.

Yea, I hated those games :). I hate RTS games though, so that's not a big deal. I'm a 4x TBS gamer by and large, which generally has queuing by city (or planet in something like GalCiv) which meshes up well with how space docks work, so I like that mechanism and I'm comfortable with it.

Just fundamentally, I don't like mechanics mismatch where I can queue 100 ships to build and it builds one at a time, while I can set down a 100 turrets and all 100 build simultaneously.

With ships, I can "fire and forget" on my building orders. I can queue a couple hundred and not really hurt myself as they only pop out one at a time. With turrets, I have to be much more careful about how many I'm laying down at once. I can't just lay down 100 turrets and pop off to another system to manage something while they build as that 100 simultaneous turrets will probably kill my enonomy. I have to lay down 10, wait until they build so I know my economy doesn't go negative, lay down 10 more, repeat, etc. I can't "fire and forget" the orders to build 100 turrets, where as I could in the previous system.

Eh, I'm spitting into the wind I guess. I just liked the simplicity of the previous system. I'll either learn to cope with the new system or I won't.

Offline ckessel

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2009, 01:48:40 pm »
yes, liq3 what you describe is exactly what i gave as reason for flow based economy ;) I thought it an exploit too - Because a ship was built without the resources spent...

Sort of irrelevant now, but the problem there isn't flow vs. non flow, it's when you're charged for the build. If you were charged when the ship began construction (not when it was queued since you can queue several) then that exploit wouldn't exist. So, a ship would hover at 0% built until the resources could be charged, the it would start the build countdown. Think of it as the space dock union laborers not working until the contracted fee is in escrow :).

Offline Echo35

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,703
  • More turrets! MORE TURRETS!
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2009, 02:21:15 pm »
yes, liq3 what you describe is exactly what i gave as reason for flow based economy ;) I thought it an exploit too - Because a ship was built without the resources spent...

Sort of irrelevant now, but the problem there isn't flow vs. non flow, it's when you're charged for the build. If you were charged when the ship began construction (not when it was queued since you can queue several) then that exploit wouldn't exist. So, a ship would hover at 0% built until the resources could be charged, the it would start the build countdown. Think of it as the space dock union laborers not working until the contracted fee is in escrow :).

What? I have union workers at my space docks? Damn, how on earth am I supposed to beat the AI now? :)

Offline Haagenti

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2009, 04:19:26 pm »
What? I have union workers at my space docks? Damn, how on earth am I supposed to beat the AI now? :)

Make ships nobody wants, go bankrupt and get a government grant?

Worked for GM and Chrysler.....
Nerfer of EtherJets, Lightning Turrets, Parasites, Raiders, Low Automatic Progress and Deep Raids (to name the most important)

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2009, 04:20:28 pm »
What? I have union workers at my space docks? Damn, how on earth am I supposed to beat the AI now? :)

Make ships nobody wants, go bankrupt and get a government grant?

Worked for GM and Chrysler.....

No wonder the AIs took over the galaxy!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Fiskbit

  • Arcen Games Contractor
  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,752
Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2009, 08:38:04 pm »
It could be CPU-intensive and not entirely accurate, but what about an option to have the game predict if you'll have enough resources over time to build something at the present rate? Could be helpful in this situation where you're plunking down structures. The game would have to predict resource usage over the period that the structure would be constructing, looking at resources per second, resource stores, average queue intake, and the amount used by other incomplete structures. It's not perfect, but it could certainly give a decent indication in the event you're making a lot of defenses or something.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.  Thanks for helping to make our games better!