Author Topic: Getting frustrated  (Read 4152 times)

Offline ckessel

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Getting frustrated
« on: August 29, 2009, 02:42:00 am »
I've played 3 games now. The first I lost to a fairly small group of angry raiders because I had zero defenses behind the front lines. Obviously my fault. The second I seemed to start on a hopeless map bottled up by type IV planets nearby. Ok, bad maps happen.

The 3rd game I seemed to be doing ok, capturing about 10 planets by around hour 7. Then cross planet attacks started, at least I assume that's what they were "massing for an attack". I have nearly every ship build, I'm at mark III in two ship types. It takes nearly all of my ships to break some of these planets near my front lines, so while I have defenses in turrets or a wave of crappy ships like gatling lasers, most of my fleet is planet busting. The AI is early into the tech II level of "pissed off".

The CPS comes in from the other side. I defeat that one. Then another CPS. Then another one almost immediately after and I just don't have anything left to fight with anymore and lose my planet. This is on AI level 6, supposedly still "easy". I'm getting absolutely killed. I've played strategy games for 25 years now on various computers so I'm not a lightweight and I haven't even sniffed a semblance of a victory. I've read the strategy guides, I seem to be doing what they say. I'm just crushed by the sheer mass of enemy forces.

I like AI wars pretty well so far, in concept anyway, but it's getting pretty disheartening to put 10-15 hours into a game and not even get close. I'm reticent to start another game because I simply can't figure out what I'm supposed to be doing differently. I'm skipping hard planets. I'm gate raiding to reduce my fronts. I'm perhaps putting too much tech in turrets rather than ships, but not excessively and it doesn't seem to slow down the AI much anyway.

How do people deal with the game once the AI starts sending in these attacks of 1000+ ships?

Offline liq3

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 04:21:05 am »
I have 2 questions...

How much knowledge did you harvest in that game?

What difficulty and type were the AI? Also, did you set anything else to make the AI harder?

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 04:53:04 am »
Thanks very much for the feedback; it's really appreciated.

I'm curious what version of the game you're running. Is it 1.013, or is one of the prereleases? If a prerelease, which one?

I'm a little alarmed that you're having such troubles, particularly on 6. Difficulty 7 is where the AI gets most interesting, but I'm worried that things are getting hard enough that people won't be able to play a game of reasonable difficulty on that setting. The recent prereleases have made the game even harder in many respects, with waves that come in with hundreds or thousands of ships (particularly in single player, I agree with liq3 that it's hitting "silly" numbers and that it's made worse by fighters being the most durable and irritating units around), while attempting to balance that with more income. This can be overwhelming and demands a lot of defense; personally, I think it's rather difficult, but I've been playing mostly on 8 lately; perhaps I should be bumping it down a bit.

It sounds like the problem for you isn't so much the vast quantities of ships from raids, but rather cross-planet attacks. They can be dangerous and are triggered by too many ships on a planet, which will typically be your neighboring worlds. It's really important to keep an eye on neighboring planets to ensure that they never get enough ships for this to happen, especially on III or IV worlds, where a cross planet attack is especially devastating. If you're doing this already, though, then I'm even more concerned.

I'm sure Chris will have a good response in the morning when he sees this and could look into tweaking things if necessary, but in the mean time, I'll at least try to offer a few ideas for you. Harvester exo-shields are pretty knowledge-cheap and are a fantastic investment on border worlds, making your harvesters basically invincible against anything but fleets of bombers or any ships that can fire through force fields. Also, force fields in general are definitely your friend, and throwing them over the far side of a wormhole protects you from enemy ships coming in through that wormhole (again, unless they're immune to force fields, or unless you have a large fleet of bombers or massive fleet of other things). It's really helpful keeping resource stores handy so that you can pump out ships if need be, either to replace recently destroyed fleets or to 'move' a distant fleet (if you're hitting ship caps) to the battlefront by deleting that fleet and building a new one locally as quickly as you can. Also, in the 1.014/1.201 prereleases, starships are significantly more powerful and, in my opinion, a very good investment. Leech starships in particular are great. Starships are a lot of bang for your knowledge buck, though they are pricey on metal and crystal and take a while to build (several engineers are basically necessary).

Regarding turrets, I don't think they're a very good investment unless protecting something important (like a wormhole or command station) and backed by a force field; I feel that the knowledge is better spent on improved ships. The number of incoming ships is simply so high lately that stationary defenses hold little value to me, and tractor beam turrets are too expensive for the number of ships they capture compared to the total number in a raid and take too long to build compared to the length of raid warnings for them to adequately protect against raids. Others may have differing opinions, however. If you're going with turrets, lightning turrets paired with tractor beams by wormholes is probably a great way to go.

Finally, if you're playing the prereleases, keep an eye on the threat info at the top of the screen. It'll help keep you in the know regarding what to expect on your border worlds.

Again, thanks for the feedback. We're happy to discuss this further, and I'm sure that Chris and perhaps others will have some thoughts on this in the coming hours.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 10:09:17 am »
Given that the cross-planet attacks were not coming until so late in the game, I suspect he is playing on 1.013.  In general the new 1.201 releases are harder with what the AI does, but I'm working on adjusting the waves again because they are just too crazy.

Having this be frustratingly difficult is definitely not a design goal, but sometimes things get a little more difficult a little fast when the AI is made smarter, which has happened a lot recently.  In particular, I think that the cross-planet attacks were unbalanced in 1.013, and they are much better now in 1.201 (with them being based more on the level of the AI Progress at the time.

I'll post a link to the lasted 1.201 prerelease shortly, as it has some balance adjustments.  I think you'll appreciate them.  Definitely sorry to hear about your frustrations in there, it's unfortunate about the cross-planet raids being like they were in 1.013 -- I definitely look forward to having 1.201 officially released very soon.
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Offline ckessel

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 11:16:20 am »
1.013 off of Impulse. I'm regretting buying the Impulse version now though as I'm dependent on it for updates :(.

I think the AI was at around 270, I was on AI 6, so I think that means they turned tech II at 240. The waves aren't a problem, my turret defenses plus some roaming defenders seem to mostly handle them. Its the CPS that killed me. As noted, the tech III and IV systems are the worst and they tend to be the ones I bump up against and stop going in that direction. Those lightning turrets are killers and don't even get me started on Super Fortresses... However, this means the III and IV systems are the ones launching CPS as often as not and I just get steamrolled.

I'm researching ok, I guess, it's hard to know. I'm sucking all the points of planets I own and usually suck down 2-3 useless, but weak, planets nearby where I can park, take the research, and run.

Now, I do play on "normal" combat. I'm wondering if the fast and dangerous combat is easier. I think I've seen x4000 mention that's his preferred mode. The reason I wonder is part of the problem is that CPS attacks that come 3-4 hops away take a while for me to get my ships to. In the fast and dangerous mode, I'd get there in 1/2 the time to defend. It also means I'd planet bust faster, knock out shield generators faster, and knock out train stations faster. CPU reinforcement is also time based and thus the CPU inherently has more time to reinforce if my ships take longer to get to the front and engage in battle.

Overall combat is mostly the same obviously as far as damage ratios, but I think one of the things working against me is purely time. I'm often maxed out on some of my key ships and build queues go into a wait state until the next battle. I can produce the ships almost as fast as they die in battle (unless it's a big mismatch like me vs. a IV planet), which means my docks are idle some. If I played fast and dangerous, ships would die alot faster and thus my docks wouldn't be idle as often.

I'm a TBS gamer, so I figured "normal" combat would fit my style better, but in trying to figure out what's going wrong I wonder if fast and dangerous would be a better match.

Offline x4000

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 11:20:08 am »
A few brief notes, while I'm still working on the next prerelease:

1. You can install the prerelease versions over your Impulse copy without incident.

2. Your serial number from Impulse is also good with any other version of the game, so you can install that regular and get the non-Impulse updates if you prefer.

3. Normal mode should be fine, I'd expect a TBS player would prefer that, but the cross-planet waves might well be out of balance with that mode in 1.013.  That could explain why you are having so much trouble with the cross-planet attacks in particular, whereas others have not mentioned it as much.

4. The lightning turrets have been nerfed already in 1.201; they were indeed too overpowerful.
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Offline liq3

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 11:33:56 am »
I'm researching ok, I guess, it's hard to know. I'm sucking all the points of planets I own and usually suck down 2-3 useless, but weak, planets nearby where I can park, take the research, and run.
You can check the amount you've researched in the score window somewhere (econ tab or something). It'll tell you the exact amount.

Also, just sounds like you were getting owned by CPAs that were Mark III or IV, which is pretty much normal I think.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 12:11:31 pm »
Don't listen to the hardcore players on this forum, 6 is definitely not easy, neither is 5 (on a 80 planet map)

The best game-mode for a FUN experience is DIF 4 with you giving yourself a Bonus of 50% +
I noticed that for some reason DIF 5 has now cross planet attacks which was not this way before, there is nothing you can do against those on a large map.

Actually it feels as if the AI gets too many reinforcements at DIF 7 as well - i seen a planet go way beyond its supposed limit of ships (only 1 command station, no guard posts) and after 2 hours it was at a whopping 1600 ships.

Maybe it can be done so as to change unit limits to 250 per AI Type when no guard post is there anymore. And have the ai actually hold true to that limit... ah well ;P
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Offline x4000

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 12:13:42 pm »
The best game-mode for a FUN experience is DIF 4 with you giving yourself a Bonus of 50% +
I noticed that for some reason DIF 5 has now cross planet attacks which was not this way before, there is nothing you can do against those on a large map.

It was always that way, but often the difficulty 5 planets would just not get enough reinforcements to actually make this happen.

Maybe it can be done so as to change unit limits to 250 per AI Type when no guard post is there anymore. And have the ai actually hold true to that limit... ah well ;P

That's just the limit for guards... other stuff that is just passing through, or which has retreated to that planet, wouldn't count in that total.  I haven't yet seen the actual ship count get too high for guards, but I don't know.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 12:14:41 pm »
New version, with hopefully an ideal difficulty level compared to 1.013 or the recent 1.201 versions:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,1067.msg6732.html#msg6732  Or at least getting closer. :)
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Offline Admiral

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 02:27:51 pm »
No disrespect meant here - everyone has his own way of playing games...

I like it better when I'm losing. If I win, I figure it's because the opponent sucked even worse than I do.

My favorite game ever was one where I was on the cusp of winning... And the enemy wiped my homeworld through a sneak attack that it was my own moronic fault for not noticing earlier.

Offline ckessel

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 02:54:13 pm »
No disrespect meant here - everyone has his own way of playing games...

I like it better when I'm losing. If I win, I figure it's because the opponent sucked even worse than I do.

My favorite game ever was one where I was on the cusp of winning... And the enemy wiped my homeworld through a sneak attack that it was my own moronic fault for not noticing earlier.

I don't mind losing as long as I feel like I'm learning how to improve for next time. The problem was that I couldn't see a way to improve. It wasn't clear what I'd done wrong to result in a losing position or how I could stop the same thing from happening again.

Now I'm on the 1.20G prerelease and it's completely different. In fact, my initial strategies of lots of space docks each producing one thing is out the window due to the energy costs of space docks. I'm not sure quite how to approach the new energy constraints yet as they're pretty significant.

Offline ckessel

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 03:58:43 pm »
Well, damn it. New game with 1.20G and 28 minutes in I get a wave of 90 AI raiders. The 90 raiders blow by my 5 tractor beams and 8 turrets and 60 or so waiting ships, beeline for my command station and it's game over about 30 seconds later.

In 1.013 it seemed like a dozen or so in a wave was typical early.

90 raiders after 30 minutes? And there were 40 bombers coming in 3 more minutes.

Offline Echo35

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 04:01:09 pm »
The single player game I'm currently playing had a planet right next to me that was literally sending in about 2-6 ships every 10-20 seconds. Was really annoying at the start of the game, but when I got my defences up, I parked my parasites over there and built up a nice sized fleet of the AI's own ships before launching a counter assault  :D

Offline Revenantus

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Re: Getting frustrated
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 04:06:32 pm »
ckessel, can I confirm what difficulty you're playing at?

Building a forcefield over your home command station early on is generally a good investment, especially since the AI is now far more vicious.

Were those turrets and ships your only defences? That's not a huge number 30 minutes in, what's your early game build strategy?